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When will this shit end?


Chrisp1986

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5 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Informative guest on the decision to halt the Oxford/AZ vaccine, at around the 53min mark:

So essentially, the issue is that the rare form of blood clots (usually relating to low platelet counts), may therefore point to an an immunizational response being the culprit (but not proven), which is why it got flagged. However he says even if it was proven, the chances of catching covid and getting seriously ill are far far higher than the minute chance of a blow clot side effect.

So, I'm presuming, if the countries pausing it had an abundance of Oxford/AZ vaccine and were halting it, it would be a bad decision (as it would potentially risk far more lives than it would save) however because they are facing a shortfall anyways, a short pause probably wouldn't make any difference , especially if they can just catch up on the vaccines missed the following week.

France and Germany have a LOT of AZN vaccines sitting in the fridge. I dont really agree that leaving it there for more supplies rather than putting it in arms is the best idea

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7 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Informative guest on the decision to halt the Oxford/AZ vaccine, at around the 53min mark:

So essentially, the issue is that the rare form of blood clots (usually relating to low platelet counts), may therefore point to an an immunizational response being the culprit (but not proven), which is why it got flagged. However he says even if it was proven, the chances of catching covid and getting seriously ill are far far higher than the minute chance of a blow clot side effect.

So, I'm presuming, if the countries pausing it had an abundance of Oxford/AZ vaccine and were halting it, it would be a bad decision (as it would potentially risk far more lives than it would save) however because they are facing a shortfall anyways, a short pause probably wouldn't make any difference , especially if they can just catch up on the vaccines missed the following week.

But on the flip side if its a batch problem or they find a common factor with these people it affected then they can take action. 

Though "benefits outweigh the risks" is so loaded that stopping it for numbers this low is probably stupid, we know that some people's bodies will react badly to vaccines put out at that scale and we just need to accept it I guess 

Edited by efcfanwirral
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2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

France and Germany have a LOT of AZN vaccines sitting in the fridge. I dont really agree that leaving it there for more supplies rather than putting it in arms is the best idea

I don't either, but at least now I understand the thinking, even if I think it's the wrong call!

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4 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

This vaccine nationalism stuff is all nonsense. The point of the EU is that it's a union, with different members, each with their own skills and specialisms. Yes, as a country we are great at vaccine-related stuff. It's why the EEA was headquartered in London until we left, and the MHRA was a big part of it. We were the experts in that. We left and the EU lost our expertise, and we retained it. So when the need came for that, we did better. Of course we did.

The question is, how many things are there like that, where we are top in Europe? There's not many. And that's not because Britain is shit, it's because we are one state and they are twenty-seven states. It's just the law of averages - they've got more people, more diverse experience, chances are for any given thing they'll have someone better than we are. But in a few cases they won't - that was part of what we bought to the EU.

It was dumb luck that the very first post-Brexit crisis happened to be a once-in-a-lifetime pandemic. In future challenges, we'll see the EU doing consistently better.

Thank you for such a balanced view. Refreshing to read.

Of course the UK excels in some things. But the UK is a very small country and will have increasingly less relevance on a world stage now dominated by China and its periphery and the US.

Being part of an influential block was by far our best hope to have influence globally...and we've given that up. Getting vaccinations completed a couple of months early won't begin to make up for the far lower global influence, soft power and the inevitable weaker economy through inefficient and lower volumes of trade with the people we want to trade with most.

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8 minutes ago, zahidf said:

France and Germany have a LOT of AZN vaccines sitting in the fridge. I dont really agree that leaving it there for more supplies rather than putting it in arms is the best idea

No, but they've suspended using AZ vaccine so they can't.

I agree it's not a good idea though.

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1 minute ago, balthazarstarbuck said:

Anyone else noticed how when the vaccine is being rolled out successfully and jabbing hundreds of thousands a day it’s called the Oxford Vaccine, but when it’s got questionable efficacy and killing people with blood clots it’s the AstraZeneca vaccine?

Andy Murray all over again.

It was the same thing with the Test and Trace literature having NHS branding on it but the vaccination posters we saw had the Conservative Party branding on it. 

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17 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

That's a huge question which I only have time to give a simple answer too...

Imagine every British based business with a global presence of any size that is currently held back by domestic covid restrictions. 

What, both of them?

I'm being facetious but I think your argument is good, the problem is it's mostly just manufacturing and that's about 12% of our economy these days. They will benefit a lot from "beating" others to reopening but they are a small part of what we do. Our main export remains financial services and they've not been forced to stop in the pandemic.

There is a big question mark around tourism though - getting that open early and first over summer could be huge, but that to work, you need to open the country up to non-vaccinated individuals holidaying from elsewhere.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, balthazarstarbuck said:

Anyone else noticed how when the vaccine is being rolled out successfully and jabbing hundreds of thousands a day it’s called the Oxford Vaccine, but when it’s got questionable efficacy and killing people with blood clots it’s the AstraZeneca vaccine?

Andy Murray all over again.

Never used that term in Europe and probably never will be. But that has`t anything to do with efficacy or blood clots. nobody would understand oxford vaccine here, but everyone knows Astra Zeneca from the start.

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9 minutes ago, balthazarstarbuck said:

Anyone else noticed how when the vaccine is being rolled out successfully and jabbing hundreds of thousands a day it’s called the Oxford Vaccine, but when it’s got questionable efficacy and killing people with blood clots it’s the AstraZeneca vaccine?

Andy Murray all over again.

It's always AZ to me.

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7 minutes ago, Hannibal Schmitt said:

Yeah, but its more a storm in the Water glass. decision by EMA is expected between today and Thursday. Unless they forbid the vaccine they have only lost 2 or 3 days. More important is that their population will loose every trust in the AZ vaccine.

yeah, I expect trust was pretty low anyway, now they may as well give up with the AZ one.

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19 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

 

What, both of them?

I'm being facetious but I think your argument is good, the problem is it's mostly just manufacturing and that's about 12% of our economy these days. They will benefit a lot from "beating" others to reopening but they are a small part of what we do. Our main export remains financial services and they've not been forced to stop in the pandemic.

There is a big question mark around tourism though - getting that open early and first over summer could be huge, but that to work, you need to open the country up to non-vaccinated individuals holidaying from elsewhere.

I also think there a lot of marginal gains to be made across the whole economy.  Just in general productivity vs other countries.   Lots of small gains equal big returns.

I LOVE working from home and it suits me well but many others really want / need the office back.  I could do with the office couple of times a week some weeks.  You can't beat that around the white board meeting sharing ideas.  Its much more restrictive over zoom.  

We are service based economy and the more productive those services are the better they will compete on a global market.

Edited by Barry Fish
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35 minutes ago, xxialac said:

Thank you for such a balanced view. Refreshing to read.

Of course the UK excels in some things. But the UK is a very small country and will have increasingly less relevance on a world stage now dominated by China and its periphery and the US.

Being part of an influential block was by far our best hope to have influence globally...and we've given that up. Getting vaccinations completed a couple of months early won't begin to make up for the far lower global influence, soft power and the inevitable weaker economy through inefficient and lower volumes of trade with the people we want to trade with most.

 

We're going off topic here but we have a permanent seat on the UN security council, we're a member of the G7 and NATO, we're the 6th largest economy in the world.  Let's not pretend we're an irrelevance on the world stage.

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30 minutes ago, xxialac said:

It takes some considerable skill to earn a negative community rating after 12,000 odd posts so people on here don't agree.

I have spent 10,000 of those posts arguing with Neil in the discussion section 🙂

Its bloody impressive its currently only -6 🙂  It was +10 before I pointed out the facts around the vigil.  

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3 minutes ago, ErnestWorthing said:

 

We're going off topic here but we have a permanent seat on the UN security council, we're a member of the G7 and NATO, we're the 6th largest economy in the world.  Let's not pretend we're an irrelevance on the world stage.

This!!! all day long!

And we still have probably the greatest concentration of respected scientific minds in this country.  Its wasn't a fluke we made the call on the 12 week spacing and it was proved correct.  Its also not the fault of the scientists the government have played rough shot with their advice and guidance. 

Edited by Barry Fish
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10 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yeah, I expect trust was pretty low anyway, now they may as well give up with the AZ one.

It`s rather complicated. Countries like Germany won`t loose so much time as their vaccination campaign is building up more on the Biotech/Pfizer, they will get to their goal late summer with or without the AZ. Other countries like ours are building up on both, the AZ and Biotech and others in the EU are only building up on the AZ. These will really have a problem now with the German, French and others decisions. So the EU/EMA (this is what our health minister said yesterday as approving the continuation of the AZ till probably Thursday) should make a clear and very fast statement on countries and the use of the AZ, giving confidence to the people, because the stopping of the AZ was done by individual countries and should have been coordinated the the EU.

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34 minutes ago, xxialac said:

It takes some considerable skill to earn a negative community rating after 12,000 odd posts so people on here don't agree.

I guess it depends what is important to you. 

This place is an echo chamber, particularly evident on this thread. The 'community rating' only reflects that. 

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