Brexit at Glasto?

[strummer77]

1 minute ago, clarkete said:

Although they would yesterday if all Labour MPs had backed I believe?

They were on about Corbyn and his stance as leader. This just proves it to be honest - even now, with No Deal around the corner and the leadership backing the option it still wouldn't pass. So god knows why or how it would have before now.

[Scott129]

I think a second referendum would be far more likely now had the people's vote lot not started demanding it the day after the referendum.  They could then argue (like Labour can) "look we tried to get a good brexit, but the only brexit we can get will seriously harm our economy so we're gonna put it back to you to confirm". Whereas now it just looks like a stitch up by people who were never willing to accept the referendum result. 

[Gingerfish79]

There are only three likely outcomes from here... No-deal exit, long extension and a general election (unlikely as Tories are petrified of tearing themselves apart), or most likely as I see it, a further vote on the WA with a promise to Labour that if they support there will be a confirmatory referendum. 

[Mardy]

As ever, @Woodersonis bang on the money here.

I’ve been thinking about it, remember when Gordon Brown apologised for calling a woman a ‘bigot’? When that’s exactly what she was. Start of the rot there, the Labour Party should be fighting against racism and prejudice, not tacitly endorsing it and courting it. They should be standing up strongly and making the case positively why racism and fear of immigration is wrong. That’s the really disappointing thing about all of this. 

[Sasperella]

7 minutes ago, Mardy said:

As ever, @Woodersonis bang on the money here.

I’ve been thinking about it, remember when Gordon Brown apologised for calling a woman a ‘bigot’? When that’s exactly what she was. Start of the rot there, the Labour Party should be fighting against racism and prejudice, not tacitly endorsing it and courting it. They should be standing up strongly and making the case positively why racism and fear of immigration is wrong. That’s the really disappointing thing about all of this. 

I totally agree with this and what David Lammy said - pandering to racists isn't the way forward. But firstly, thinking about how we got into this mess in the first place (plenty of reasons, starting with Thatcher and then continuing on from there), working out what domestic policies are needed to sort it out, and engaging at the grass-roots level to change people's opinions is far better than just writing off half the population as bigots. 

Corbyn has many failings as leader, but blaming him for the whole sorry affair when there are labour MPs who still won't vote for alternative solutions seems just as biased as the people accused of being in the Corbyn-cult

[Sasperella]

Tbh I'm sick of it all. The toxicity of the whole thing, the fascinating way it can split opinion with no neat dividing lines, and everyone's inability to conveniently ignore facts from the other side of the argument. The vitriol in this thread aimed at people who don't agree with them on the way forward is just another reflection of the polarisation of the UK. It's a complete joke...which is on all of us, by the look of it

Edited April 2, 2019 by Sasperella

[mcshed]

50 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

nope. A vote means it can't exist.

Plenty will feel stitched up, but they won't be able to claim that what (finally) happened was against what the people wanted.

They'll grumble like fuck of course, but it's not a stabbed in the back myth. It's 'the will of the people' (providing remain won, of course) and ultimately that kills their complaint.

 

Nope. See above.

I think you are over stating the distinction between a stitch up and a back stab.

[Penrhos]

Bored of all this now....

They won't call an election until it's sorted one way or another because both major parties will be worried that where the constituents voted "Leave" and the incumbent MP blocked it then either the other party of Farage's lot will get in as a protest vote. Same goes where it's the other way around. It's such a toxic subject that no major party would put a solid declaration about it in their manifesto.

Both major parties know their current leaders are un-electable so that's another reason an election will not occur soon and if they were to go canvassing for votes they'd get a sea of abuse and threats followed by a piss-poor turnout on polling day.

After all if 52% vote Labour and 48% vote Tory - then they'll argue that the manifesto's were lies and things should remain as it is now as it would be a disaster to change anything.

The EU will either refuse to extend the deadline hoping that the UK will cancel article 50 as they worry that no-deal will cost jobs & votes in the EU letting the far right into power or make it until 2021 when new EU budgets are out and the UK and others loose the rebates.

The danger with that is you can bet most of the UK's MEP's will be Farage's lot and would disrupt the smooth-running of the Brussels Gravy-train.

Either way I can't see this farce continuing beyond April before being cancelled or kicked into the very long grass in the hope it'll blow over and can be ignored. I don't wan't anymore bad news ruining my Glasto buzz.

[stuartbert two hats]

46 minutes ago, Mardy said:

As ever, @Woodersonis bang on the money here.

I’ve been thinking about it, remember when Gordon Brown apologised for calling a woman a ‘bigot’? When that’s exactly what she was. Start of the rot there, the Labour Party should be fighting against racism and prejudice, not tacitly endorsing it and courting it. They should be standing up strongly and making the case positively why racism and fear of immigration is wrong. That’s the really disappointing thing about all of this. 

And as much as people like to remind us of this tweet...

Miliband bears his own responsibility for this mess 

[Wooderson]

Im not having the "stabbed in the back" repartee either. These people never voted before and won't again. They turned up to the bonfire with a can of racist petrol and chucked it everywhere. Showing concern for english "leave voter perceptions" is loser talk.

[bombfrog]

42 minutes ago, Sasperella said:

...everyone's inability to conveniently ignore facts from the other side of the argument. The vitriol in this thread aimed at people who don't agree with them...

OK, I'm all ears, what are the "facts" that remainers are ignoring from the other side of the argument?

I don't think it's a case of vitriol being aimed at people who "don't agree" with us, it's aimed at people who are provably wrong. You can't just ignore all experts, tell hundreds of lies and then be expect not to be treated with contempt. Every leave voter I've spoken to has been happy to help the lies and misinformation propagate.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, bombfrog said:

Every leave voter I've spoken to has been happy to help the lies and misinformation propagate.

just yesterday, in another thread on here, I was told that the EU forced the govt to privatise Royal Mail. It's not true of course. 

That avid brexiter has provided a list of reasons for why he wants brexit. So far the only valid item on the list is that they've forced him (and councils) to save money and the planet by using more-efficient lighting. The bastards, eh?   

(and at the start of the ref campaign, there was a poster here who said he'd be voting leave to stop the muslims coming in. He was asked which European country the muslims were coming from. He was never seen again).

Reasons like these are why the complaints of many brexiters shouldn't be taken on board too much. Brexit in any form won't address their wrong complaints about the EU and so we shouldn't bother to try.

[incident]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

So far the only valid item on the list is that they've forced him (and councils) to save money and the planet by using more-efficient lighting. The bastards, eh? 

Except, that's not valid.

The phase out of incandescent light bulbs was a UK policy that got picked up and adopted by the EU.

So by any reasonable definition, we forced the germans, french, etc to use more efficient lighting.

[Sasperella]

15 minutes ago, bombfrog said:

OK, I'm all ears, what are the "facts" that remainers are ignoring from the other side of the argument?

I don't think it's a case of vitriol being aimed at people who "don't agree" with us, it's aimed at people who are provably wrong. You can't just ignore all experts, tell hundreds of lies and then be expect not to be treated with contempt. Every leave voter I've spoken to has been happy to help the lies and misinformation propagate.

I'm tired of this tbh and don't really want to get into it....but I wasn't referring to the lies told about leaving the EU at the time of the referendum (for the record, I voted remain, despite my misgivings about the EU as a neoliberal institution). I was referring to the current conversation on this thread about the likely implications of Labour coming out hard in favour of revoke/second ref.

I have socialist "Lexiteer" friends who are always banging on about how Labour needs to back leave, claiming until they're blue in the face that all the remainers are Tory/blairite/whatever, and that if Labour backs a second ref, their base will be eliminated. Exactly the opposite is happening in here - it is, for example, a fact that not everyone who voted out is racist. It might be convenient if we could believe that it wasn't, and that they were all a bunch of swivel-eyed bigots, but I think the situation calls for more nuance. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by Sasperella

[incident]

11 minutes ago, Sasperella said:

it is, for example, a fact that not everyone who voted out is racist. It might be convenient if we could believe that it wasn't, and that they were all a bunch of swivel-eyed bigots, but I think the situation calls for more nuance. 

I don't think anyone has stated or even implied that all leave voters are racist. I think it's well acknowledged that one of the main reasons we have this ridiculous situation is that the people who voted leave did so for too many differing reasons with too many differing ideas of what leave actually meant.

However that being said, what does get stated and what' absolutely factual is that they are standing with racists, both in the original poll and through to last week when Tommy Robinson was one of the main speakers at the "big" Leave rally in London. We're not talking about a fringe group that happens to agree with the leave campaign - they're happy to put these people front and centre. Maybe your friends can justify that to themselves, I couldn't and in this case I definitely do judge people by the company they keep.

[DeanoL]

The “remainers not accepting the result of the referendum” thing isn’t really true by the way. They accepted the message of the referendum, which is what an advisory ref is meant to do: and that message was: we want UK sovereignty back and we want fewer immigrants.

That was accepted. You can tell as literally in all these debates no one is speaking in favour of freedom of movement any more. Or how multiculturalism is brilliant. 

Moronically it’s the hardcore leavers now not accepting the result. As a plan to deliver the result of leaving is on the table and it’s being rejected.

[Wooderson]

16 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

The “remainers not accepting the result of the referendum” thing isn’t really true by the way. They accepted the message of the referendum, which is what an advisory ref is meant to do: and that message was: we want UK sovereignty back and we want fewer immigrants.

That was accepted. You can tell as literally in all these debates no one is speaking in favour of freedom of movement any more. Or how multiculturalism is brilliant. 

What bullshite is this?

[gigpusher]

3 hours ago, Mardy said:

As ever, @Woodersonis bang on the money here.

I’ve been thinking about it, remember when Gordon Brown apologised for calling a woman a ‘bigot’? When that’s exactly what she was. Start of the rot there, the Labour Party should be fighting against racism and prejudice, not tacitly endorsing it and courting it. They should be standing up strongly and making the case positively why racism and fear of immigration is wrong. That’s the really disappointing thing about all of this. 

Totally agree with this. Think I noticed a real change in the general election before the last one. In the 'debates' all the main parties just spoke in soundbites and didn't tackle any of the misinformation peddled by a right wing press. Every question about immigration I wanted one of them to stand up and admit that this country relies on immigrants to fulfil important jobs and that they contribute more than they take but only the SNP and Plaid Cymru made any effort to talk about the benefits of immigration. 

Leaders should challenge opinions that they know to be wrong and try and educate people. There is zero effort by the vast majority of politicians these days to do that. 

[found home in 2009]

3 hours ago, Mardy said:

As ever, @Woodersonis bang on the money here.

I’ve been thinking about it, remember when Gordon Brown apologised for calling a woman a ‘bigot’? When that’s exactly what she was. Start of the rot there, the Labour Party should be fighting against racism and prejudice, not tacitly endorsing it and courting it. They should be standing up strongly and making the case positively why racism and fear of immigration is wrong. That’s the really disappointing thing about all of this. 

Yeah Brown should have had the balls to stand by his comment as he was right. Instead he started trying to seem tough on immigration. I remember in the leaders debate him saying we should only allow immigrants for jobs there was a skills shortage and he gave as an example the fact we have lots of great chefs so why should we let any foreign chefs in.

I remember laughing as I just thought how bland would British food be if we'd never let it be influenced by other cultures.

The fact Theresa May managed to avoid any flak for her hostile environment policy which fucked over the Windrush generation is a disgrace. Even Amber Rudd who took the fall for her is back in the cabinet as if nothing happened.

[kingbadger]

My rather simple viewpoint is that Corbyn's success in gaining seats in the last election was undoubtedly due to his appeal to the youth. That dies on its arse if he continually pursues Brexit. Me and all my mates who were very much pro-Corbyn now just want the bloke gone such is his ineptitude when it comes to Brexit.

Coming out with a revoke and reform EU policy with a rebuild the UK one would get huge support from youngsters who will vote Labour for years, rather than appeasing a generation/demographic which doesn't usually vote Labour in the hope of winning them over.

I know he wants Brexit personally, but he has the chance here to secure a legacy for not just himself but for Labour. Can bury the whole argument that only the Tories can be trusted with the economy, as they're the ones who wasted billions chasing a Brexit that would have crippled us.

Just be nice to see him fight for something. Anything.

[Mr.Tease]

3 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said:

And as much as people like to remind us of this tweet...

Miliband bears his own responsibility for this mess 

I honestly thought Cameron would go down as one of the worst PM's in history, but I think May has somehow leap forged him, spectacularly!

[stuartbert two hats]

19 minutes ago, found home in 2009 said:

Yeah Brown should have had the balls to stand by his comment as he was right. Instead he started trying to seem tough on immigration. I remember in the leaders debate him saying we should only allow immigrants for jobs there was a skills shortage and he gave as an example the fact we have lots of great chefs so why should we let any foreign chefs in.

I remember laughing as I just thought how bland would British food be if we'd never let it be influenced by other cultures.

The fact Theresa May managed to avoid any flak for her hostile environment policy which fucked over the Windrush generation is a disgrace. Even Amber Rudd who took the fall for her is back in the cabinet as if nothing happened.

A particularly bad example, as there is a severe skills shortage in curry houses all over the country, which will only get worse because they don't pay enough to meet the entry requirements.

Edited April 2, 2019 by stuartbert two hats

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Mr.Tease said:

I honestly thought Cameron would go down as one of the worst PM's in history, but I think May has somehow leap forged him, spectacularly!

why do you want to be Prime Minister Dave? "Because I think I'd be good at it"

May is mightily shit, but she was handed the shittiest stick any PM has had to hold and I don't think there's been any PM that could swing it.

May is a problem but the brexit problem is not May, it's brexit.

[Mr.Tease]

3 hours ago, Wooderson said:

Im not having the "stabbed in the back" repartee either. These people never voted before and won't again. They turned up to the bonfire with a can of racist petrol and chucked it everywhere. Showing concern for english "leave voter perceptions" is loser talk.

The key is to make sure they never vote again! As long as they think it's the ERG that 'betrayed' them, all will be well. Otherwise there's the risk they'll team up and stick around.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, stuartbert two hats said:

A particularly bad example, as there is a severe skills shortage in curry houses all over the country, which will only get worse because they don't pay enough to meet the entry requirements.

and yet another side of that story is that curry chefs can earn £60k because of the shortage.

I have a feeling that story is being played by the curry houses to their own advantage, in the same way business groups try to influence things to their advantage. It's not like there's a shortage of curry houses really.