When will this shit end?

[stuartbert two hats]

1 hour ago, zahidf said:

But we aren't at that stage, and the people saying no to the vaccine now are delaying us getting to that stage

 

Well, we're not at that stage yet either. Refuseniks aren't particularly slowing the rollout as far as I'm aware. They will eventually, but not yet.

[Guest]

They certainly shouldn't lose their jobs over it if they are concerned about fertility.

[MEGABOWL]

8 minutes ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

I understand I think. I think your saying, if they let you mix in pubs and other places but not at home people will meet up in these other places rather than at home and that might curtail some of the in home mixing which is more problematic. 

Yeah exactly. It’s the approach they took last year. Or at least they did in Scotland anyway, I think it was the same in England. If they permit household mixing early, it will be a free for all. If they keep it officially restricted, while some will ignore that once relatives are jabbed, that will funnel some people into controlled environments and some into not doing it at all. Getting money-making businesses open also makes economic sense and will help satisfy their backbenchers.

 

Its a counter intuitive sort of logic but it’s there nonetheless.

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

1 minute ago, MEGABOWL said:

Yeah exactly. It’s the approach they took last year. Or at least they did in Scotland anyway, I think it was the same in England. If they permit household mixing early, it will be a free for all. If they keep it officially restricted, while some will ignore that once relatives are jabbed, that will funnel some people into controlled environments and some into not doing it at all. Getting money-making businesses open also makes economic sense and will help satisfy their backbenchers.

 

Its a counter intuitive sort of logic but it’s there nonetheless.

That's my thought process too. 

[zahidf]

38 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Well, we're not at that stage yet either. Refuseniks aren't particularly slowing the rollout as far as I'm aware. They will eventually, but not yet.

Oh that guardian article had an expert say it was. Only the one expert saying it though!

[Mellotr0n]

Goodness me this place is tetchy at the moment, isn’t it?

We’re all knackered mentally. Keep going everyone. 

[Reckoner]

42 minutes ago, MEGABOWL said:

Yeah exactly. It’s the approach they took last year. Or at least they did in Scotland anyway, I think it was the same in England. If they permit household mixing early, it will be a free for all. If they keep it officially restricted, while some will ignore that once relatives are jabbed, that will funnel some people into controlled environments and some into not doing it at all. Getting money-making businesses open also makes economic sense and will help satisfy their backbenchers.

 

Its a counter intuitive sort of logic but it’s there nonetheless.

This was the basically the rationale given in Melbourne when they were loosening restrictions from memory. Households are higher risk being and impossible to manage compliance  in the way you can with a bar/ restaurant with space between seats, capacity limits etc and forcing compliance through fines/shutdown along with the added bonus of the economic stimulus. 

[stuartbert two hats]

20 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Oh that guardian article had an expert say it was. Only the one expert saying it though!

Ah, I'd not seen that. I'd imagine it's going to get worse as time goes on, unless compliance improves as the vaccines prove to be safe.

[efcfanwirral]

6 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Ah, I'd not seen that. I'd imagine it's going to get worse as time goes on, unless compliance improves as the vaccines prove to be safe.

I think the (real world) proof that it actually stops spread will help too. If somebody is skeptical about the actual vaccine the doubt over whether it would actually stop spread adds another layer to it,as that doesn't help others so it calls into question the point. Obviously we know the nuances a bit more on here but most people don't read scientific papers or have somebody like TD giving information! 

Edited February 14, 2021 by efcfanwirral

[stuartbert two hats]

I find it baffling that so many people are looking forward to the J+J single dose, which is less effective than all the dual dose vaccines, yet are complaining bitterly about how risky it is to delay the second dose in the UK.

Surely the bigger risk is in deploying J&J without any booster at all.

What do you think @Toilet Duck

[xxialac]

3 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I find it baffling that so many people are looking forward to the J+J single dose, which is less effective than all the dual dose vaccines, yet are complaining bitterly about how risky it is to delay the second dose in the UK.

Surely the bigger risk is in deploying J&J without any booster at all.

What do you think @Toilet Duck

Good question. I'd be interested in your thoughts too, Senor Duck of Toilet.

[Leyrulion]

14 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I find it baffling that so many people are looking forward to the J+J single dose, which is less effective than all the dual dose vaccines, yet are complaining bitterly about how risky it is to delay the second dose in the UK.

Surely the bigger risk is in deploying J&J without any booster at all.

What do you think @Toilet Duck

Results of the 2 dose j+j trial will probably be out by the time consideration of a booster for it comes around.

I was one of the last recruited into their two dose trial at my site and I'm due back early March for 2nd shot. I don't think we're due any J+J until April if it's approved. So you'd hope that there will be preliminary results by July on if a two dose is helpful.

Also remember j+j is definitely effective against SA variant at one dose, less than the Kent but still about 60%.

Also- J+J was also 100% effective at preventing hospitalisations. Comparisons on efficacy between different vaccine trials aren't always as simple as the press make out. Each of them has slightly different end points in how they quantify mild, moderate or severe Illness which mean the % efficacy aren't directly comparable.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Leyrulion

[stuartbert two hats]

Just now, Leyrulion said:

Results of the 2 dose j+j trial will probably be out by the time consideration of a booster for it comes around.

I was one of the last recruited into their two dose trial at my site and I'm due back early March for 2nd shot. I don't think we're due any J+J until April if it's approved. So you'd hope that there will be preliminary results by July on if a two dose is helpful.

Also remember j+j is definitely effective against SA variant at one dose, less than the Kent but still about 60%.

And it's probably great with two doses. Maybe it's just different people who are enthusiastic about J&J to those fretting about the UK gap. There seems to be this idea that just because it's tested with one shot, then it's fine. Evan though the other vaccines might be just as effective, they just weren't tested in that configuration.

Anyway, bring on Novavax!

[Smeble]

Just booked a holiday, for December 2022, fingers crossed.

 

[Smeble]

7 hours ago, hodgey123 said:

I’m sorry but I will be breaking household mixing rules at the latest in May. It’s ridiculous to ban it any longer than that 

Special person alert.

[xxialac]

UK hotel quarantine starts tomorrow morning.

Uh oh...

[Toilet Duck]

1 hour ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I find it baffling that so many people are looking forward to the J+J single dose, which is less effective than all the dual dose vaccines, yet are complaining bitterly about how risky it is to delay the second dose in the UK.

Surely the bigger risk is in deploying J&J without any booster at all.

What do you think @Toilet Duck

I think the clamour for J&J is mainly down to speed of getting done (I think it’ll serve it’s purpose in a younger cohort). If it’s available in April, it pretty much guarantees getting at least 1 shot into everyone before summer, but you’re right, it’s odd since 1 shot of OX/AZ, Pfizer, Moderna works just as well yet people are still complaining about longer gaps. To be honest, if I was offered the OX/AZ shot and booked in for dose 2 in 3-4 weeks, I’d “miss” my appointment and come back between 8-12 weeks later! The gap is correct based on all the data available (hence every regulator has approved its use that way...pretty sure Pfizer and Moderna will work just as well with the longer gap too). All of them continue to give excellent protection against severe disease, hospitalisation and death even after 1 shot, so the quicker we get people vaccinated, the sooner we are out the other side of this. We need doses here, supply is seriously slowing us down, but hopefully will improve over the next few weeks (and we’re still on course to meet our schedule anyway, but would be nice to get it finished early!)...

[mcshed]

8 hours ago, Ozanne said:

They certainly shouldn't lose their jobs over it if they are concerned about fertility.

Firing a significant percentage of healthcare workers during a pandemic where one of the main public health risks is strain on the health service is clearly ridiculous.

But there is no evidence at all for a risk to fertility, COVID itself is much more likely to be a risk, I wouldn't particularly target NHS workers but if there is significant vaccine refusal that is putting public health at risk then measures to encourage vaccination makes sense. 

This is why public perception of vaccine safety is paramount and the likes of Macron spouting off about the effectiveness of the AZ vaccine was so dangerous. Building public confidence is much better than introducing restrictions or certainly firing anybody. 

[Paul ™]

6 hours ago, xxialac said:

UK hotel quarantine starts tomorrow morning.

Uh oh...

And reports late yesterday from UK  saying there are gaps. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56055185

Scottish government asking again for passengers bound for Scotland traveling into England to be quarantined down there or details passed on to Scotland.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-56060224

Meanwhile I called the company yesterday who are running it (CTM North) to ask some specific questions about my upcoming travel back, she went off twice to check and then eventually the call disconnected so am still no further forward.

Still no reply either from the email I sent regarding it either... 

 

[Guest]

 

[JoeyT]

25 minutes ago, mcshed said:

Firing a significant percentage of healthcare workers during a pandemic where one of the main public health risks is strain on the health service is clearly ridiculous.

But there is no evidence at all for a risk to fertility, COVID itself is much more likely to be a risk, I wouldn't particularly target NHS workers but if there is significant vaccine refusal that is putting public health at risk then measures to encourage vaccination makes sense. 

This is why public perception of vaccine safety is paramount and the likes of Macron spouting off about the effectiveness of the AZ vaccine was so dangerous. Building public confidence is much better than introducing restrictions or certainly firing anybody. 

But at the same time there’s no trial data to say there isn’t and the vaccine manufacturers will admit as much.

Therefore I think refusing to have the vaccine due to a lack of data in regards to something like fertility is different for reasons which are more to do with public confidence.

I think the two things are different.

[st dan]

5 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

 

Sure it’s easy to blame the government for this type of thing and yes they should have plan plans for the above, but shouldn’t some of it be enforced by the airports themselves and their management e.g. logistics, restrictions, queueing etc inside the terminals themselves? Doesn’t sound like a Covid secure workplace at all - and isn’t this on employers to enforce?

[st dan]

6 minutes ago, JoeyT said:

But at the same time there’s no trial data to say there isn’t and the vaccine manufacturers will admit as much.

Therefore I think refusing to have the vaccine due to a lack of data in regards to something like fertility is different for reasons which are more to do with public confidence.

I think the two things are different.

Yeah I agree, and some people don’t even take paracetamol or caffeine when trying to conceive, so for these there is no hope in hell of them taking a vaccine which has been around for a few months with a lack of data to support its long term effects. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by st dan

[incident]

7 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I find it baffling that so many people are looking forward to the J+J single dose, which is less effective than all the dual dose vaccines, yet are complaining bitterly about how risky it is to delay the second dose in the UK.

Surely the bigger risk is in deploying J&J without any booster at all.

What do you think @Toilet Duck

Is anyone really looking to Janssen though? Given that the the Government have said that they expect deliveries (to the UK) "to arrive in the second half of this year", unless they get ahead of schedule it's going to get here too late to have any real impact rollout speed.

It's likely that both Moderna and Novavax get delivered months before that with both currently scheduled for April, and by the time Janssen comes into play just about everyone should have had a chance of a first dose of something else.

[Paul ™]

15 minutes ago, st dan said:

Sure it’s easy to blame the government for this type of thing and yes they should have plan plans for the above, but shouldn’t some of it be enforced by the airports themselves

Not at all.

The PLF where the information is about the passenger is not checked by the airport, but by the carrier before boarding and all they check is that you have the barcode. 

And then it's not checked again till by UK Border Force at passport control where these passengers are identified.

The whole thing is a farce and this was always going to happen, even inbound indirect flights will have passengers from both red list and non red list on the same planes.