When will this shit end?

[Chapple12345]

2 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

True, I'd forgot about workplaces beyond pubs and retail. Might make some offices open earlier.

My dad works for NatWest and they’ve been advised they may not return to offices until January, who knows what’ll happen next with it all 

[FestivalJamie]

On 6/21/2020 at 12:06 PM, Ozanne said:

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN23R0XS?__twitter_impression=true
1 meter plus rule being announced Tuesday apparently. Which will mean you can be within 1 meter of someone if you are wearing a mask, how that works in a pub I have no idea.

In germany, you must wear your mask when you enter a restaurant/pub. You then fill out your details for contact tracing and you are then taken to your table. Once you are seated, you may take off your mask for the duration of your meal.

If you are planning on getting up to go to the toilet, or to move around to socialise with other groups (from a 1.5m distance), you must be wearing your mask again.

In germany, masks are compulsory in all indoor areas. With the new “1m plus” rule in the UK, I would expect to see a similar situation. Masks compulsory at tourist attractions, in supermarkets and non essential shops, cinemas and on public transport. However, you only have to keep 1m apart rather than 2m apart, which can double the capacity of all of these businesses and get the economy running again.

Of course, knowing our government and all their ideas so far they will probably come up with some other ridiculous plan, but this is the rough outline of what I would expect them to announce tomorrow.

I think from next month masks will be compulsory in a lot more public settings (should have been done in March to reduce transmission but I guess we were short of PPE supplies)- hopefully it will help prevent a second wave.

 

[shoptildrop]

15 minutes ago, FestivalJamie said:

In germany, you must wear your mask when you enter a restaurant/pub. You then fill out your details for contact tracing and you are then taken to your table. Once you are seated, you may take off your mask for the duration of your meal.

If you are planning on getting up to go to the toilet, or to move around to socialise with other groups (from a 1.5m distance), you must be wearing your mask again.

In germany, masks are compulsory in all indoor areas. With the new “1m plus” rule in the UK, I would expect to see a similar situation. Masks compulsory at tourist attractions, in supermarkets and non essential shops, cinemas and on public transport. However, you only have to keep 1m apart rather than 2m apart, which can double the capacity of all of these businesses and get the economy running again.

Of course, knowing our government and all their ideas so far they will probably come up with some other ridiculous plan, but this is the rough outline of what I would expect them to announce tomorrow.

I think from next month masks will be compulsory in a lot more public settings (should have been done in March to reduce transmission but I guess we were short of PPE supplies)- hopefully it will help prevent a second wave.

 

This is the problem, everything you have said makes sense and it would be responsible to do this. However, IMO Bojo will never enforce masks it will be optional and it will be the personal responsibility to follow the optional recommendation 

Reality is we know some folk will wear masks but plenty won't for various reasons (reasons along the lines of - its just flu and I have an immune system/Numbers are down/more people die of X reason/it looks stupid/what's the point/I survived X so if I'm gonna go/don't want to and its my right not to)

I agree what someone said above that people are already using 1m or less anyway and that has defo got worse in last few weeks  

[squirrelarmy]

26 minutes ago, FestivalJamie said:

Masks compulsory at tourist attractions, in supermarkets and non essential shops, cinemas and on public transport

Cinema chains are already saying they won’t enforce the use of masks. 

If everyone is wearing masks then no one is buying popcorn, sweets or drinks which is the main revenue stream for cinemas. 

[FestivalJamie]

21 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

Cinema chains are already saying they won’t enforce the use of masks. 

If everyone is wearing masks then no one is buying popcorn, sweets or drinks which is the main revenue stream for cinemas. 

Following current government legislation, if cinemas set up seating distances to 2m between groups, then wearing a mask in a personal choice of the visitor.

If the government changes legislation and changes the law that masks are compulsory in indoor spaces, cinema chains will have no choice but to enforce this rule. 

Reducing the distance from 2m to 1m with compulsory face masks means the cinema chains can sell double the seats per screen. This will create more revenue than selling some popcorn or sodas.

At the end of the day, the new plan has to be about getting the economy moving safely again, and not about people having a jolly.

26 minutes ago, shoptildrop said:

This is the problem, everything you have said makes sense and it would be responsible to do this. However, IMO Bojo will never enforce masks it will be optional and it will be the personal responsibility to follow the optional recommendation 

Reality is we know some folk will wear masks but plenty won't for various reasons (reasons along the lines of - its just flu and I have an immune system/Numbers are down/more people die of X reason/it looks stupid/what's the point/I survived X so if I'm gonna go/don't want to and its my right not to)

I agree what someone said above that people are already using 1m or less anyway and that has defo got worse in last few weeks  

Most people I know are no longer social distancing when they see their friends etc. I am continuing to keep 2m apart and will continue to keep this distance even if the gov reduce it to 1m, because I know it is a safer distance.

The scientists have already expressed concerns to the government that being at a 1m distance is 10 times more dangerous than being at 2m. Whilst we know the gov are saying they follow the science, yet their decisions are mainly political, they cannot simply ignore the risks of changing the enforced legislation to 1m. Changing to 1m means having double the amount of people in the supermarket at once, in the cinema at once, or in any enclosed room at once.

Therefore the government will simply not just drop the distancing from 2m to 1m without putting precautions in place. They full well know if they act carelessly there could be a second outbreak, overwhelming the NHS causing another lockdown. This will be the last thing they want as it will be even more damaging to jobs and the economy.

There will be mitigations in place, I’m sure of it, and businesses will have no choice but to oblige to them. But whether the mitigation’s are sensible or not, I think that could go either way based on their decisions so far.

As of 4th july I expect a lot more plexiglass screening throughout businesses, increased use of PPE (hopefully supermarket staff will finally start wearing PPE-god knows why they haven’t all this time) and potentially other mitigation factors, which they will hopefully elaborate on tomorrow. As I said, these will be worked into the law so businesses will have no choice to oblige. If face masks are compulsory in enclosed spaces, cinemas will have no choice but to make them mandatory and enforce the rules.

Lets wait and see what happens tomorrow, as I said there’s no way they will simply drop the distancing by half without mitigation factors in place. The risks are simply too high as we are in a very delicate position in the UK outbreak.

(I know lots of people are meeting up with friends now and not keeping distance but broadly speaking people will still be keeping distance from other parties, whether it be in queueing for the shops or out in the parks groups will be spaced out. Most people are still meeting outside which reduces transmission risks even further).

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by FestivalJamie

[steviewevie]

7 hours ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Do you really think it will? I don't go anywhere other than the park or Tesco at the moment but no one is observing any kind of distance in either as far as I can tell. Been that way for ages. I really think it will only make a difference in pubs. 

I think it will make a difference in many work spaces as well as pubs/cinemas/theatres/shops/schools...but also psychologically, Alot of people are still trying to keep their distance, not easy all the time in supermarkets, but the queues and when out and about I see people mostly trying to keep some physical distance. They will now know that this is less strict. That's what I think...I could be wrong though.

 

[Zoo Music Girl]

15 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I think it will make a difference in many work spaces as well as pubs/cinemas/theatres/shops/schools...but also psychologically, Alot of people are still trying to keep their distance, not easy all the time in supermarkets, but the queues and when out and about I see people mostly trying to keep some physical distance. They will now know that this is less strict. That's what I think...I could be wrong though.

 

So as I say I only go to the supermarket at the moment, but my experience in there is that people queue respectfully 2m apart outside and then inside it's a free for all. No one keeps their distance or follows the arrows and the queues inside are not distanced at all. In the parks here no one shows any distancing and kids are even using the playgrounds in big groups etc. Just my anecdotal experience of course but I think a lot of people have just decided it's done. Of course the government need to legislate for businesses but psychologically I really think  most people are back to normal.

We are seeing family this week for the first time since March and will be trying to keep our distance and follow the rules even if they reduce it to 1m. But I know even those family members have pretty much given up on it with their mates now.

[Chef]

4 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

So as I say I only go to the supermarket at the moment, but my experience in there is that people queue respectfully 2m apart outside and then inside it's a free for all. No one keeps their distance or follows the arrows and the queues inside are not distanced at all. In the parks here no one shows any distancing and kids are even using the playgrounds in big groups etc. Just my anecdotal experience of course but I think a lot of people have just decided it's done. Of course the government need to legislate for businesses but psychologically I really think  most people are back to normal.

We are seeing family this week for the first time since March and will be trying to keep our distance and follow the rules even if they reduce it to 1m. But I know even those family members have pretty much given up on it with their mates now.

I was talking to a GP friend yesterday (who incidentally has parents who own a string of care homes who have not had 1 case of corona virus) and he seems to be far more relaxed now about easing measures, from a state of very high concern not all that long ago.

I think its all about balance of risk and with that risk dropping we have to start getting back to some semblance of normality - now the health element is starting to get under control focus has to turn to fixing other issues that have come about because of this, albeit it very carefully.

He now is much more concerned about the long term damage to children being out of school and his view was we really should start getting them back. 

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

8 hours ago, DeanoL said:

But if you lose, we play again, and this time if you pick the red one, you die. 

Still want to play? Or not worth the risk for £100?

That suggests Covid has a 50% mortality rate, it’s not Ebola. 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Deaf Nobby Burton

[foolee]

Obviously I’m not scientist but I don’t see many people observing the 2m distance anymore, VE Day happened, bank holiday beach days & protests however there is still no spike in infections therefore surely it is safe to go down to 1m? For me, if the economy doesn’t start moving and fast a lot more people are going to die from poverty and depression than the virus. It’s very worrying. 

[sisco]

3 minutes ago, foolee said:

Obviously I’m not scientist but I don’t see many people observing the 2m distance anymore, VE Day happened, bank holiday beach days & protests however there is still no spike in infections therefore surely it is safe to go down to 1m? For me, if the economy doesn’t start moving and fast a lot more people are going to die from poverty and depression than the virus. It’s very worrying. 

I’d suggest with Boris’s imminent Announcement on Restaurants, Cinemas, Pubs and with the new Vulnerable rules that is exactly what’s coming. 

[Zoo Music Girl]

36 minutes ago, Chef said:

I was talking to a GP friend yesterday (who incidentally has parents who own a string of care homes who have not had 1 case of corona virus) and he seems to be far more relaxed now about easing measures, from a state of very high concern not all that long ago.

I think its all about balance of risk and with that risk dropping we have to start getting back to some semblance of normality - now the health element is starting to get under control focus has to turn to fixing other issues that have come about because of this, albeit it very carefully.

He now is much more concerned about the long term damage to children being out of school and his view was we really should start getting them back. 

 

29 minutes ago, foolee said:

Obviously I’m not scientist but I don’t see many people observing the 2m distance anymore, VE Day happened, bank holiday beach days & protests however there is still no spike in infections therefore surely it is safe to go down to 1m? For me, if the economy doesn’t start moving and fast a lot more people are going to die from poverty and depression than the virus. It’s very worrying. 

Yeah my point really was that they may as well lower it to 1m now anyway as it basically is for most people. And we seem to have got away with a lot of non distanced events outside so let's hope that holds true for indoors. Despite the government fucking up at every turn we seem to be quite lucky in that it's still going down consistently so I really hope that continues as I don't think there'll be any more lockdowns if we see an uptick.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Zoo Music Girl

[st dan]

I think it’s time that the daily reporting of the number of cases/deaths is pushed to weekly - if every winter we had daily updates of the number of flu deaths, then there would also be high levels of panic and concern from the public.

If we’re going to attempt to get back to ‘normality’ then we can’t be having people constantly obsessing with any peaks and dips in the reporting numbers, and we should be advised by the science as to when we are at concerning levels. 

[Zoo Music Girl]

Just to add that by "lucky" I mean compared to what could have been. In general I'd say the death rate is anything but of course

[Ozanne]

11 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Just to add that by "lucky" I mean compared to what could have been. In general I'd say the death rate is anything but of course

I know what you mean, it’s a difficult balancing act. I think they’ll changed the 2 meter rule for 4th July announced later in today and then say they’ll review if cases increases (then change their minds if they do).

[FestivalJamie]

13 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

 

Yeah my point really was that they may as well lower it to 1m now anyway as it basically is for most people. And we seem to have got away with a lot of non distanced events outside so let's hope that holds true for indoors. Despite the government fucking up at every turn we seem to be quite lucky in that it's still going down consistently so I really hope that continues as I don't think there'll be any more lockdowns if we see an uptick.

I mean take Germany for example, their distancing is 1.5m, which has basically turned into zero distancing now, but they have mandatory masks in all indoor spaces.

They have not seen a rise in cases, their cases have been steadily decreasing week upon week.

But, this week they had a big localised outbreak in meat factory where staff aren’t able to social distance and there aren’t any mitigating measures in place. Similarly a block of flats in Göttingen has been a localised outbreak. The people involved in these two local outbreaks and their contacts have been “locked down” to isolate for 2 weeks.

It shows that whilst in general virus cases in Europe are retreating(because it’s been artificially suppressed) there are still localised outbreaks, which could lead to national outbreaks if we aren’t careful. 

It’s only sensible to reduce the distancing to 1m with mitigation measures such as face masks in public areas as the WHO advises and a fully functioning and well set up track and trace system. Making sure to take people details at bars, pubs and restaurants to make sure in case of an outbreak of a chain of cases, people can be traced back to and told to isolate to limit further spread of the virus.

Obviously I understand the need to reduce the distancing to get the economy moving again, but it really heavily relies on a well developed track and trace system, which we really don’t have. And in that case we really need to rely on other factors like all customers and staff wearing masks, otherwise there is potential for another national outbreak.

 

[stuartbert two hats]

51 minutes ago, foolee said:

Obviously I’m not scientist but I don’t see many people observing the 2m distance anymore, VE Day happened, bank holiday beach days & protests however there is still no spike in infections therefore surely it is safe to go down to 1m? For me, if the economy doesn’t start moving and fast a lot more people are going to die from poverty and depression than the virus. It’s very worrying. 

They were all outdoors. It's indoors where businesses are pushing for the guidelines to be relaxed.

[Waterdeep]

Thousands in Sweden still sick but counted as recovered.

https://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&nv=1&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.expressen.se/debatt/vi-ar-tusentals-som-aldrig-tycks-bli-friska-hjalp-oss/

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

Was taking to some friends about immunity and not knowing how long it lasts (likely a year or so) But given the majority of people are asymptomatic how does that work? If you’re asymptomatic then your body dealt without without you even knowing, so whether you then become immune or not is surely to an extent irrelevant? They virus has been shown to be fairly stable and doesn’t mutate much, so if you dealt with it first time, why would you not deal with it just as well second time, immunity or no immunity? 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Deaf Nobby Burton

[zahidf]

Hopefully they'll be some updates on this

 

11am: The Lords science committee takes evidence from Oxford and Imperial College scientists working on a coronavirus vaccine.

[foolee]

24 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

They were all outdoors. It's indoors where businesses are pushing for the guidelines to be relaxed.

My point still stands that more people will die from poverty and depression if the economy doesn’t start picking up fast. I get your point we don’t have any information on indoor meetings but there are still plenty of people in close proximity touching the same things in shops, through deliveries and hospitals. I’ve also seen plenty of people on buses with no masks and probably a lot of people meeting in houses and not going along with the guidelines. Also, I haven’t seen any restaurants, pubs or cafes open outdoors only etc. so it’s not just the businesses with indoor offices that need this right now. I know of companies that have offices but have staff working from home so the staff can still do their job however these companies may rely on things like vets to be open however these are not at full capacity so redundancies may be needed. We need to get away from the fear mongering and start having some positives. Otherwise a lot of people are going to lose their jobs, houses and livelihoods which is already happening. Not to mention the amount of money we are all going to have to contribute to taxes in the future to payback the furlough scheme. We are all in for a really rough ride and the quicker things start moving in the right direction in a sensible manner the better.

[Ozanne]

8 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Hopefully they'll be some updates on this

 

11am: The Lords science committee takes evidence from Oxford and Imperial College scientists working on a coronavirus vaccine.

Where are they taking it to?

[zahidf]

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

Where are they taking it to?

? its a lords committe, so answering questions from people on the committe

[steviewevie]

This podcast gives a pretty good account of govt handling of epidemic, Johnson getting v ill with it, and the ending of lockdown.

https://podcasts.apple.com/no/podcast/the-sick-man-boris-johnson-britain-and-the-virus/id1487320403?i=1000478402249

[Cream Soda]

10 hours ago, DeanoL said:

But if you lose, we play again, and this time if you pick the red one, you die. 

Still want to play? Or not worth the risk for £100?

It doesn't matter how many times we play, the odds will still be the same - 1/1700 (and hopefully dropping all the time).  Not a fair comparison saying if you pick the red card you die either - even if you come across that 1/1700 with the virus it doesn't necessarily mean you will catch it.  And if you catch it, it doesn't mean you will die - far from it.