news & politics:discussion

[Ryan1984]

Starmer is on the BBC News right now - seems to have more fire in his belly than for quite a while.

[steviewevie]

 

[JoeyT]

 

[Fuzzy Afro]

Conservative MP James Brokenshire dies at 53 having suffered with lung cancer for four years. RIP 😞 

[Ozanne]

2 hours ago, mcshed said:

I genuinely can't remember a single instance of a PM's conference speech being widely criticized for a lack of policy detail it simply isn't something that happens.

Whilst I agree that in general the Tory commentariat are more inclined to remain positive about their leader than Labour I really don't think that is the huge handicap you seem to think it is.  Johnson is still broadly popular in the country at large thanks to getting Brexit done and a decent vaccine roll out, with that as the background it's unsurprising that nobody cares if his speech is his usual after-dinner waffle. Even if there were more Tories writing in papers saying it lacks substance it just wouldn't have cut through. He'll get a harder time if we have a winter of fuel poverty and empty shelves.

As for nothing Labour do being good enough, I just don't believe that, the reason Starmer gets a lot of shit about policy is because he's been in the job for over a year and the general public doesn't have a scooby what he stands for. This is partly due to the pandemic hovering up most people's current affairs bandwidth but is also because Starmer's basic pitch is he is a sensible lawyer type so is better than Corbyn/Johnson who aren't serious grown up politicians like him now that's fine but when an election comes round it needs to be backed up by a vision for the country that can be sold to those voters who don't pay much attention to politics.

 

Johnson won’t get a harder time when most of those things in the winter happen because people will use whataboutery to blame Labour for something or just ignore the problems and find some other issue they can bash Starmer for. It’s like there has to be something to shift negative focus away from the Tories, which is why I think those people secretly don’t actually support Labour like they claim to.

Also Starmer has given a vision for the country under his Labour government, he outlined it last week. 

[mcshed]

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

Also Starmer has given a vision for the country under his Labour government, he outlined it last week. 

What is the narrative that outlines it that he hopes to push through to the average bloke who doesn't give a shit about politics?

[mcshed]

14 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Johnson won’t get a harder time when most of those things in the winter happen because people will use whataboutery to blame Labour for something or just ignore the problems and find some other issue they can bash Starmer for. It’s like there has to be something to shift negative focus away from the Tories, which is why I think those people secretly don’t actually support Labour like they claim to.

He absolutely will get a harder time and yes there will be people who claim it's not their fault but if things are genuinely bad it will cut through to your average voter.

The people secretly hating Labour stuff makes you sound paranoid.

[Ozanne]

14 minutes ago, mcshed said:

What is the narrative that outlines it that he hopes to push through to the average bloke who doesn't give a shit about politics?

His vision is essentially the ‘contribution society’ where people that work hard will get something back as in fair pay for fair work. This would put contribution and community at the centre through a partnership of public and private sector to prioritise: health, living conditions, working conditions and the environment.

You might not like it but it is a vision and the policies announced at Conference give more detail to that vision. 
 

6 minutes ago, mcshed said:

He absolutely will get a harder time and yes there will be people who claim it's not their fault but if things are genuinely bad it will cut through to your average voter.

The people secretly hating Labour stuff makes you sound paranoid.

Johnson won’t get a hard time by some because some of those things are happening now and he isn’t.

It’s not that people secretly hate Labour, it’s more the shy Tory (or would be happy for Labour to lose because their guy isn’t in charge) effect which you can see in the discourse where people say they don’t like the government but everything else they say indicates the opposite. 

[Haan]

ACAB 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-58842137 

[Ommadawn]

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

Johnson won’t get a harder time when most of those things in the winter happen because people will use whataboutery to blame Labour for something or just ignore the problems and find some other issue they can bash Starmer for. It’s like there has to be something to shift negative focus away from the Tories, which is why I think those people secretly don’t actually support Labour like they claim to.

Also Starmer has given a vision for the country under his Labour government, he outlined it last week. 

It is possible to support Labour and also criticise them you know.

[Ommadawn]

33 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

His vision is essentially the ‘contribution society’ where people that work hard will get something back as in fair pay for fair work. This would put contribution and community at the centre through a partnership of public and private sector to prioritise: health, living conditions, working conditions and the environment.

You might not like it but it is a vision and the policies announced at Conference give more detail to that vision. 
 

I'm sorry Ozanne but I didn't get any of that from his speech.

[fraybentos1]

1 hour ago, Ommadawn said:

It is possible to support Labour and also criticise them you know.

Nah the only way to support Labour is to wildly praise the leader at all opportunity and defend him at all costs. 

[Ozanne]

2 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

I'm sorry Ozanne but I didn't get any of that from his speech.

He outlined his vision a few days before his speech and then the Party added detail with several policy announcements through Conference. You might not have got his vision but he has outlined one for the country. 

[steviewevie]

Saw some polling that showed majority preferred Starmer's speech to Johnson...but that unlikely to make much difference at the moment. It all comes down to what happens to the economy and levelling up etc over the next few years...not what is said at a party conference.

[Crazyfool01]

At some point people will wake up to this shit show surely … ?!!!  Watching tonight’s news … it’s farmers … energy .. one piece of crap news following another … 

[mcshed]

6 hours ago, Ozanne said:

Johnson won’t get a hard time by some because some of those things are happening now and he isn’t.

This is a problem that some of us on the left get sucked into, we read a lot of stories about how the government are fucking up and then think how come the population at large aren't more upset about how useless the government are? But for your average person who doesn't engage with politics it's only really big things that cut through. The increase in gas prices hasn't worked it's way through to house hold bills yet and the increase in empty shelves in the shops haven't reached the stages of food shortages so your average voter doesn't give a stuff. The petrol thing people noticed but because there isn't actually a shortage of petrol just a shortage of drivers and a spike in demand due to panic then it seems to be settling down quickly enough not to linger to long in the memory.

If things genuinely get bad the government will suffer, I'd actually prefer for Labour to win the argument without things turning to absolute shit but I do recognise that that is hard for all the reasons we've been talking about. At the moment Labour aren't really part of the conversation in terms of the future of the country and that needs to change. I don't have the answer as to how, and as I have noted above not really standing for anything until an election worked from Cameron so maybe it easiest to just look serious until it's campaign time but if that is the plan then expect people to whinge about a lack of policy.

[mcshed]

6 hours ago, Ozanne said:

His vision is essentially the ‘contribution society’ where people that work hard will get something back as in fair pay for fair work. This would put contribution and community at the centre through a partnership of public and private sector to prioritise: health, living conditions, working conditions and the environment.

You might not like it but it is a vision and the policies announced at Conference give more detail to that vision. 

It isn't cutting through I'm a Labour member I like Starmer's policies but I don't think they coallece around a single theme like that. Winning elections means getting across a simple narrative about what is wrong and why you are the solution. Starmer isn't doing that, partly this is because he is struggling for attention against the backdrop of COVID but partly because he seems to prefer to concentrate on internal party matters rather than issues facing the nation. To give him the benefit of the doubt an election is years away so maybe it is more important to get his house in order first and save the proper policy stuff for the campaign but there is the risk that he establishes himself as the boring lawyer guy who is continuing with Labour's incessant in fighting. 

[SwedgeAntilles]

On 10/8/2021 at 12:45 AM, eFestivals said:

the division starmer is dealing with are  people talking about division, while being divisive, check out owen jones, any week, to see how much milage there is in this self serving bollocks

 Owen Jones, I knew it was him. Even when Starmer was backtracking on the promises he made to party members to get elected, I knew it was Owen Jones.

[eFestivals]

18 minutes ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

 Owen Jones, I knew it was him. Even when Starmer was backtracking on the promises he made to party members to get elected, I knew it was Owen Jones.

its owen jones' fault that you believed what a politician said 😛 

[SwedgeAntilles]

 

 

[squirrelarmy]

1 hour ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

 

 

Thought this would pop up here. 
 

Just proves that people who aren’t qualified to drive a HGV shouldn’t be anywhere near a HGV. It doesn’t matter how good you are at driving a car, trying to get to grips with a HGV is completely different. 
 

This is actually a win for Starmer. He’s a competent man and not reckless, if he struggled to drive this vehicle then the Tory plan of getting anyone desperate for a job behind the wheel is going to end up in disaster.
 

I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s an increase in road deaths due to inexperienced HGV drivers. 

The Tories won’t care. They’ve stopped looking at the body count caused by their ineptitude. 

[Ozanne]

At least he hasn’t gone on holiday during an energy crises, pandemic report stating worst one of the worst UK health failures and continuing Brexit crises.

[maelzoid]

I think this whole HGV crisis is a perfect opportunity to start implementing driverless vehicles for heavy goods.

[Ozanne]

[JoeyT]

When should the PM go on holiday? Boris or otherwise?

There's always issues to be sorted, the country doesn't grind to a halt & problems cease to exist in order for whomever it is to go on hols.