When will this shit end?

[zahidf]

Harsh but fair

Anyone hired their parents as cleaners?

[steviewevie]

I work for a US company and they are pushing for us to start going into office part time so office never fully occupied. This, of course, goes against English guidance which is work from home if you can.

[Cherry Tree]

18 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I work for a US company and they are pushing for us to start going into office part time so office never fully occupied. This, of course, goes against English guidance which is work from home if you can.

Unless you follow Rees-Moggs view, that you need to be in the office as your boss needs you there to shout down anyone who asks him a difficult question that flusters him into making a stupid statement.

oh wait, looks like I will be back in the office pretty soon

[mattiloy]

4 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I'm talking about the kind who are much more concerned with attacking their own party than the Tories and will withhold their vote from Starmer because he's not Corbyn or his anointed successor. Even though there's no other party that actually represents their views better.

Yeah I mostly agree with that, but I can sympathise with them given the civil war waged on corbyn by the right of the party for the last 5 years and the amount of people who voted lib dem this time, in swing seats too. 

Whilst I agree that it should be an unemotional decision, I can see how people who invested something of themselves into campaigning or whatever, feel aggrieved at the message from the other wing which is, okay, we have actively worked against your lot for five years but now you have to stop being childish and get onside. For a group who have a hyper sensitive sense of injustice, which i think you probably are if you are on the left, that will taste bitter. That said, i guess that these are a minority, albeit a loud one on social media. Since the left is the overwhelming majority of the membership now, an awful lot must have voted for starmer. So im not sure the super tribal corbynists are such a critical demographic to win over.

[steviewevie]

Starmer just has to make one mistake and the press will go to town on him...Johnson gets away with it because he's good old Boris.

[Smeble]

2 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said:

And yet Clegg voted to increase student fees.  Fuck the Lib Dems.

The fees Labour introduced 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Starmer just has to make one mistake and the press will go to town on him...Johnson gets away with it because he's good old Boris.

Pretty much.

[fred quimby]

12 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Starmer just has to make one mistake and the press will go to town on him...Johnson gets away with it because he's good old Boris.

Sadly

[DeanoL]

14 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Yeah I mostly agree with that, but I can sympathise with them given the civil war waged on corbyn by the right of the party for the last 5 years and the amount of people who voted lib dem this time, in swing seats too. 

Whilst I agree that it should be an unemotional decision, I can see how people who invested something of themselves into campaigning or whatever, feel aggrieved at the message from the other wing which is, okay, we have actively worked against your lot for five years but now you have to stop being childish and get onside. For a group who have a hyper sensitive sense of injustice, which i think you probably are if you are on the left, that will taste bitter. That said, i guess that these are a minority, albeit a loud one on social media. Since the left is the overwhelming majority of the membership now, an awful lot must have voted for starmer. So im not sure the super tribal corbynists are such a critical demographic to win over.

While I think for the younger Corbynists that makes sense, and that was a huge portion of Corbyn's base there's also something more subtle going on - at least for me and I can't imagine I'm the only one. I'm in my late 30s, and I am starting to see why people go Conservative. 

The thing is, my personal politics are pretty far left - I want radical change in society to make things better for everyone. But I'm doing okay - own a house, fairly well paid job. I'm a decent step above the average UK wage but certainly not near the top 10%. I supported Corbyn safe in the knowledge that it would cost me, personally. I would be less well off. I would pay more tax. That was a price I was willing to pay for a radically different and improved society. And I was okay with it because while I would pay more, he would also be dismantling the big business interests, taxing the super rich even more, cutting off the lucrative public transport / utilities contracts - all that stuff. A price worth paying.

My problem is I look at the more centrist point of view - and it lacks that radical change, and it also lacks that focus on actually taxing the really rich even more. Obviously we don't have a Starmer manifesto yet, but if it goes a similar route to Blair, what those changes tend to do is make things a bit better for those at the bottom, while taxing people like me more, and leaving the super-rich and the vested business interests in play. And while it's a sacrifice I would make for a radically better society, I'm not sure it's a sacrifice I want to make for a slight improvement. 

Voting Labour is against my own self-interest. I've always been willing to do that on the promise of actual, significant change. I'm not sure I am willing do that for small, minor fixes. 

And yes there's an argument that we have to take that step first, make the small changes before we can make the big ones, perhaps in a second term, but is that true? Is there actually any appetite for actual radical change? Or the minute Labour start talking about nationalisation again the Tories are voted back in?

[zahidf]

So lockdown worked?

 

 

[Crazyfool01]

4 minutes ago, zahidf said:

So lockdown worked?

 

 

depends if they are going for the herd immunity ? or not 

[zahidf]

This will end well

 

 

[zahidf]

30 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

depends if they are going for the herd immunity ? or not 

I was dubious anyway if that was there approach but if so...

 

Whitty says that he thinks the figures says 4% nationally and 10% in London.

[zahidf]

Says that being outside is safe enough 

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-comment-on-risk-of-transmission-while-outside-and-vitamin-d/

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by zahidf

[Homer]

1 hour ago, DeanoL said:

While I think for the younger Corbynists that makes sense, and that was a huge portion of Corbyn's base there's also something more subtle going on - at least for me and I can't imagine I'm the only one. I'm in my late 30s, and I am starting to see why people go Conservative. 

The thing is, my personal politics are pretty far left - I want radical change in society to make things better for everyone. But I'm doing okay - own a house, fairly well paid job. I'm a decent step above the average UK wage but certainly not near the top 10%. I supported Corbyn safe in the knowledge that it would cost me, personally. I would be less well off. I would pay more tax. That was a price I was willing to pay for a radically different and improved society. And I was okay with it because while I would pay more, he would also be dismantling the big business interests, taxing the super rich even more, cutting off the lucrative public transport / utilities contracts - all that stuff. A price worth paying.

My problem is I look at the more centrist point of view - and it lacks that radical change, and it also lacks that focus on actually taxing the really rich even more. Obviously we don't have a Starmer manifesto yet, but if it goes a similar route to Blair, what those changes tend to do is make things a bit better for those at the bottom, while taxing people like me more, and leaving the super-rich and the vested business interests in play. And while it's a sacrifice I would make for a radically better society, I'm not sure it's a sacrifice I want to make for a slight improvement. 

Voting Labour is against my own self-interest. I've always been willing to do that on the promise of actual, significant change. I'm not sure I am willing do that for small, minor fixes. 

And yes there's an argument that we have to take that step first, make the small changes before we can make the big ones, perhaps in a second term, but is that true? Is there actually any appetite for actual radical change? Or the minute Labour start talking about nationalisation again the Tories are voted back in?

You also need to factor in where the Tories are going - which is further to the right. I voted for Corbyn twice, and I would also rather have a centrist (if indeed that's what Starmer is) in place than the Conservatives. And I'll happily chip in a bit more tax for it to happen too.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Homer said:

You also need to factor in where the Tories are going - which is further to the right. I voted for Corbyn twice, and I would also rather have a centrist (if indeed that's what Starmer is) in place than the Conservatives. And I'll happily chip in a bit more tax for it to happen too.

Me too, I don't mind if I bring in a little less a month if that means our public services are better funded and society can be more equal.

 

I think Starmer is more left than people realise, obviously not as left as Corbyn but he's got some progressive ideas.

[Matt42]

8 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Me too, I don't mind if I bring in a little less a month if that means our public services are better funded and society can be more equal.

I think the problem is a lot of people don’t feel like they should be the ones getting taxed higher - and I sympathise with that argument to be honest. We have one of the highest tax rates in the world, and any increase in tax would actually harm our economy. The people want the NHS to be funded better with the money the government already receives, they feel like if they paid more money it would just be going nowhere.

[steviewevie]

I think the appeal to many labour members was that Starmer wasn't centrist or from corbynite hard left, so the most likey to be able to unite the party, and he is smart with sound principles and a great parting, and there was no one better in the contest. Many members are lefties who wanted to stop brexit...and Starmer was probably best fit for that. I like him, but not sure how well he would do in an election campaign which is the only time many people notice the leader of the opposition.

[stuartbert two hats]

18 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

I think the problem is a lot of people don’t feel like they should be the ones getting taxed higher - and I sympathise with that argument to be honest. We have one of the highest tax rates in the world, and any increase in tax would actually harm our economy. The people want the NHS to be funded better with the money the government already receives, they feel like if they paid more money it would just be going nowhere.

Citation needed

https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-tax-rates-europe-2019/

 

https://taxfoundation.org/tax-burden-labor-europe/

Edited May 14, 2020 by stuartbert two hats
Added URLs

[zero000]

16 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

I think the problem is a lot of people don’t feel like they should be the ones getting taxed higher - and I sympathise with that argument to be honest. We have one of the highest tax rates in the world, and any increase in tax would actually harm our economy. The people want the NHS to be funded better with the money the government already receives, they feel like if they paid more money it would just be going nowhere.

This is exactly the problem. The perception is not the reality. We have considerably lower income tax rates than other parts of Europe: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48988052, and our corporation tax rate is one of the lowest in the world: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/uk-public-finances-corporation-tax-cut-hmrc-analysis-austerity-a8751291.html

EDIT: @stuartbert two hats beat me to it  

Edited May 14, 2020 by zero000

[Gingerfish79]

10 years of Tory governments and a hard-right press have completely distorted the publics perception of tax in this country. If we want properly functioning public services that are capable of adapting to major emergencies without needing charitable handouts, then we have to pay for them. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Gingerfish79

[stuartbert two hats]

 

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

I think the problem is a lot of people don’t feel like they should be the ones getting taxed higher - and I sympathise with that argument to be honest. We have one of the highest tax rates in the world, and any increase in tax would actually harm our economy. The people want the NHS to be funded better with the money the government already receives, they feel like if they paid more money it would just be going nowhere.

Wow....this really didn't go well 😂

I can't add much more apart from any rise in tax wouldn't harm our economy, that's just nonsense. A decade of political driven cuts in our public services has harmed our economy though.

 

It isn't just about tax rises though, we could ensure big businesses pay their full tax bills to name one.

[DeanoL]

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

It isn't just about tax rises though, we could ensure big businesses pay their full tax bills to name one.

That's just it - plenty of people, myself included, would happily vote for someone who wants to increase the basic rate of income tax from 20 to 21%, the 40% rate to 45%, re-introduce the 50% rate and possibly go even higher for very high earners, plus remove all the tax haven loopholes. Corbyn was never that straight up on how he would actually raise the money to fund all the stuff I he wanted to do, but I could envisage all of that happening.

What I'm increasingly not okay with voting for is a Labour government that says we'll increase the basic rate to 21% and then that's it. 

Not against paying higher taxes, but it needs to part of actually making big changes. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

That's just it - plenty of people, myself included, would happily vote for someone who wants to increase the basic rate of income tax from 20 to 21%, the 40% rate to 45%, re-introduce the 50% rate and possibly go even higher for very high earners, plus remove all the tax haven loopholes. Corbyn was never that straight up on how he would actually raise the money to fund all the stuff I he wanted to do, but I could envisage all of that happening.

What I'm increasingly not okay with voting for is a Labour government that says we'll increase the basic rate to 21% and then that's it. 

Not against paying higher taxes, but it needs to part of actually making big changes. 

From what Starmer has said so far he would be taxing the big earners and try to ensure corporations pay their share. He seems to want a more equal society.