Respect the Females (and other rules)

[Losing my hair]

56 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

I found this video interesting from the perspective of social structures, men and women, propositioning women etc. 

 

As I said, the privileged will fight back when they think their entrenched privileges are being threatened, particularly if they think their position is based on their privilege rather than their abilities. Different people have different global views, I happen not to believe that society should be hierarchical when those hierarchies are based on race, religion, inheritance or gender rather than ability to contribute to that society. Clearly, looking at the world around me, others think differently.

[Simsy]

45 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Yeah, and much to my shame, jokes about the van are included in the above.

Yes, but rather than going "I wouldn't hurt women, and these man-hating feminists don't get my jokes" you've listened to the feedback. Thanks.

[Thunderstruck]

59 minutes ago, Simsy said:

We're not saying that women are getting sexually assaulted every time they leave the house, but like the Jo Brand quote upthread says, it's the constant small things that build up. Like being whistled or honked at when you walk down the street, the sleazy comments when you dare to wear a skirt to work, the guy pressed up against you when the train isn't actually that busy, having your ideas dismissed at work then repeated by a man who takes credit for it, getting your arse grabbed at a gig, the "locker room bants" in the office etc.

If you live in a world where this shit doesn't happen constantly, I'm jealous.

Yeh, this was something she mentioned on Have I got News for You? She's absolutely right, the little build up of crap like this must be awful. What has really surprised me at times are generational differences. I've had women tell me (of a certain age) that they 'quite like wolf whistling'...maybe it was done in a more classy way back in the day haha! There's a huge amount of complicated work to be done to improve the experiences of women casually walking down the street minding their own business. Obviously I'm not a women so I can't tell but I'd guess the vast majority don't like wolf whistling etc etc. What I've never quite understood is that some do like it. 

Luckily I work at a University, so the environment is very different to the outside world. I'm firmly on the centre ground when it comes to politics but my peers do like to joke that I'm the office tory. ?

41 minutes ago, Losing my hair said:

As I said, the privileged will fight back when they think their entrenched privileges are being threatened, particularly if they think their position is based on their privilege rather than their abilities. Different people have different global views, I happen not to believe that society should be hierarchical when those hierarchies are based on race, religion, inheritance or gender rather than ability to contribute to that society. Clearly, looking at the world around me, others think differently.

I agree with people having different views. But Jordan Peterson has spent a career in clinical psychology studying this kind of thing. He's describing what the research has led him to believe. The hierarchies you mention are not preferable at all, but hierarchies based on value likely are. There are hierarchies everywhere you look in nature, they aren't all some construct of modern western culture.

[Losing my hair]

4 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

Yeh, this was something she mentioned on Have I got News for You? She's absolutely right, the little build up of crap like this must be awful. What has really surprised me at times are generational differences. I've had women tell me (of a certain age) that they 'quite like wolf whistling'...maybe it was done in a more classy way back in the day haha! There's a huge amount of complicated work to be done to improve the experiences of women casually walking down the street minding their own business. Obviously I'm not a women so I can't tell but I'd guess the vast majority don't like wolf whistling etc etc. What I've never quite understood is that some do like it. 

Luckily I work at a University, so the environment is very different to the outside world. I'm firmly on the centre ground when it comes to politics but my peers do like to joke that I'm the office tory. ?

I agree with people having different views. But Jordan Peterson has spent a career in clinical psychology studying this kind of thing. He's describing what the research has led him to believe. The hierarchies you mention are not preferable at all, but hierarchies based on value likely are. There are hierarchies everywhere you look in nature, they aren't all some construct of modern western culture.

Just because Jordan Peterson has career in clinical psychology it doesn't make him right, research can be interpreted in many different ways and can be used to confirm existing prejudices. Many others think he's wrong.

https://jacobinmag.com/2018/02/jordan-peterson-enlightenment-nietzsche-alt-right

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, Losing my hair said:

psychology it doesn't make him right

there's a bit of a clue there for why he won't be right.  

[slash's hat]

44 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

Yeh, this was something she mentioned on Have I got News for You? She's absolutely right, the little build up of crap like this must be awful. What has really surprised me at times are generational differences. I've had women tell me (of a certain age) that they 'quite like wolf whistling'...maybe it was done in a more classy way back in the day haha! There's a huge amount of complicated work to be done to improve the experiences of women casually walking down the street minding their own business. Obviously I'm not a women so I can't tell but I'd guess the vast majority don't like wolf whistling etc etc. What I've never quite understood is that some do like it. 

Luckily I work at a University, so the environment is very different to the outside world. I'm firmly on the centre ground when it comes to politics but my peers do like to joke that I'm the office tory. ?

I agree with people having different views. But Jordan Peterson has spent a career in clinical psychology studying this kind of thing. He's describing what the research has led him to believe. The hierarchies you mention are not preferable at all, but hierarchies based on value likely are. There are hierarchies everywhere you look in nature, they aren't all some construct of modern western culture.

Some women may have liked wolf whistles, but how would you know who liked attention and who didn't? Easier to put them in one category rightly or wrongly? How does a woman know who will turn out to be that sleazy guy? Easier to put them in one category, rightly or wrongly? See what I'm getting at - not as easy to say they are a minority of men, we should be able to trust all men?

I'm in my 40's so going back some now, but let's say late teen/early 20s I used to get anxiety just walking past anywhere with scaffolding with blokes working. Only because of a couple of incidences of attention that made me uncomfortable. However anyone approaching me on a one to one basis I would have no problem with. Had a few drunk, leery guys who might be less thoughtful shall we say, but as long as they take the hint if you tell them to leave you alone then ok I can live with that, though being drunk obviously shouldnt really be an excuse for poor behaviour, but I get that we all make bad judgements. Even had to deal with this a few years ago at Glasto, where I was on my own and some guy who was extremely drunk (he'd have to be lol), proceeded to tell me in great detail what he would like to do. I didn't feel quite safe enough, despite being in a bar surrounded by others to tell him to do one, but did politely make my excuses to leave. The next day I was dancing on my own in a bar and a group of blokes included me, I didn't feel threatened at all.

There's ways of speaking to and acting around people. Woman aren't saying leave us alone. How would you have liked your father to treat your mother, how would you like someone to treat your sister, how would you want your daughter (present or future) to be treated?

[H.M.V]

10 minutes ago, slash's hat said:

There's ways of speaking to and acting around people. Woman aren't saying leave us alone. How would you have liked your father to treat your mother, how would you like someone to treat your sister, how would you want your daughter (present or future) to be treated?

Exactly this. Like how fucking hard is that to understand? 

[slash's hat]

Also forgot to say, with regards the video and using criminals as an analogy of different levels of harassment etc. That minority of hardened repeat criminals are unlikely to have gone straight in at the top end of criminality. They would have started with the small things, got away with it, and felt the need or had the confidence to take it further.

Edited October 26, 2018 by slash's hat

[Thunderstruck]

1 hour ago, Losing my hair said:

Just because Jordan Peterson has career in clinical psychology it doesn't make him right, research can be interpreted in many different ways and can be used to confirm existing prejudices. Many others think he's wrong.

https://jacobinmag.com/2018/02/jordan-peterson-enlightenment-nietzsche-alt-right

The article had some interesting points - but it could have gained a bit more respect by presenting the opposing world view which could be quite compelling - maybe Hierarchies aren't inevitable, maybe we don't need certain traits to be successful, we can change the order of things etc etc. Instead it seeks to align Peterson with the alt-right, conservatives and makes ridiculous claims that he presents pseudo science and pop psychology. Whether people agree or not he presents a fairly accurate view of success in the work place as it stands. There are arguments as to whether that will or can ever change however.

14 minutes ago, slash's hat said:

Some women may have liked wolf whistles, but how would you know who liked attention and who didn't? Easier to put them in one category rightly or wrongly? How does a woman know who will turn out to be that sleazy guy? Easier to put them in one category, rightly or wrongly? See what I'm getting at - not as easy to say they are a minority of men, we should be able to trust all men?

I'm in my 40's so going back some now, but let's say late teen/early 20s I used to get anxiety just walking past anywhere with scaffolding with blokes working. Only because of a couple of incidences of attention that made me uncomfortable. However anyone approaching me on a one to one basis I would have no problem with. Had a few drunk, leery guys who might be less thoughtful shall we say, but as long as they take the hint if you tell them to leave you alone then ok I can live with that, though being drunk obviously shouldnt really be an excuse for poor behaviour, but I get that we all make bad judgements. Even had to deal with this a few years ago at Glasto, where I was on my own and some guy who was extremely drunk (he'd have to be lol), proceeded to tell me in great detail what he would like to do. I didn't feel quite safe enough, despite being in a bar surrounded by others to tell him to do one, but did politely make my excuses to leave. The next day I was dancing on my own in a bar and a group of blokes included me, I didn't feel threatened at all.

There's ways of speaking to and acting around people. Woman aren't saying leave us alone. How would you have liked your father to treat your mother, how would you like someone to treat your sister, how would you want your daughter (present or future) to be treated?

Wish I had the guts to do this haha! I remember a drunk guy incident actually with my female friends, he tried to get in on our group with some of the girls to dance to which the girls gave the 'wtf look' to me and some others. ended up with me getting punched trying to get rid of him! 

3 minutes ago, H.M.V said:

Exactly this. Like how fucking hard is that to understand? 

Not hard at all, most guys do.

[ourkid1984]

I was on a train about a year ago and 3 drunk 'lads' started to say all sorts of sexist language to a woman who was on her own. They all took their turns to tell her how good looking she was and how she would "get it". I stepped in and told them they were out of order. To my disbelief she told me to mind my own business and that she quite liked what they were saying. The 'lads' all started being aggressive towards me to the point I had to leave the carriage.

I know that this is extreme and rare but with that and the almost daily anti feminist stuff I see shared on social media (by women as well as men), I can see why some men think that some of this behaviour is fine and I see this as proof that there is still a very long way to go for equality.

In terms of the actual topic I would like to see no more long chains of people shoving their way to the front without so much as a excuse me. This seems to be getting worse not just at Glastonbury but other festivals and gigs as well.

 

[slash's hat]

1 hour ago, ourkid1984 said:

I was on a train about a year ago and 3 drunk 'lads' started to say all sorts of sexist language to a woman who was on her own. They all took their turns to tell her how good looking she was and how she would "get it". I stepped in and told them they were out of order. To my disbelief she told me to mind my own business and that she quite liked what they were saying. The 'lads' all started being aggressive towards me to the point I had to leave the carriage.

I know that this is extreme and rare but with that and the almost daily anti feminist stuff I see shared on social media (by women as well as men), I can see why some men think that some of this behaviour is fine and I see this as proof that there is still a very long way to go for equality.

In terms of the actual topic I would like to see no more long chains of people shoving their way to the front without so much as a excuse me. This seems to be getting worse not just at Glastonbury but other festivals and gigs as well.

 

Firstly, good for you for intervening, if it were me then it would have been welcome. Though I would probably just have moved carriages myself and just felt annoyed the whole day. Not a criticism here, but maybe if you had asked her if she would like you to say something then that gives her the control over her own situation.

Or the other way of looking at it was if those lads hadn't acted in that manner, she still would have gone about her day happily, and you would have had no aggro.

I agree we are a long way from having the right balance. The article below, whilst lengthy, is interesting when we consider the generational differences that have been mentioned a couple of times in this thread.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/may/11/how-metoo-revealed-the-central-rift-within-feminism-social-individualist

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by slash's hat

[Skoo]

I remember when I was in my teens, I thought it was perfectly acceptable to have my bum groped when out in a bar or club. To me it was just what men do, I'd completely normalised it.

It took me til my 20s to realise how absolutely outrageous that was and I started turning around and giving what for when someone touched me without my permission.

Just as women who pose topless/nude etc for lads mags and believe that it's "empowering". I don't believe it is empowering at all. I believe it's putting women back in their box. It may feel empowering to that individual woman who is making money from it, but for the rest of us it just perpetuates the idea that women are here for men's sexual titilation.

 

[danmarks]

Something that totally opened my eyes  (I like to think I'm a decent person anyway but I guess we all do) was reading caitlin moran's -how to be famous.  It's a novel but probably did more to makeep me stop and think and empathise than many heated discussions about feminism, privilege etc.  I cant recommend it enough for every male to read to make you think - ohh that's not how I imagined things to come across when I said or did 'that. '

Definitely include me in the - philippa van routine as something I would think very different about now.

Edited October 26, 2018 by danmarks
Auto correct nonsense

[Quark]

2 hours ago, ourkid1984 said:

In terms of the actual topic I would like to see no more long chains of people shoving their way to the front without so much as a excuse me. This seems to be getting worse not just at Glastonbury but other festivals and gigs as well.

Grrrrrr!  That always winds me up.  The advantage I've got in that is that I'm quite able (and happy!) to plant my feet and just not move when you see one coming. If people are actually asking to squeeze through then I'm happy to move, but 99% of the time trying to bulldoze through doesn't generally work with me

The other one I'd add to that is people squeezing through a gap, ostensibly to move through the crowd, and then stopping in the tiny-non-gap you just created for them to move through.  THAT'S NOT HOW THIS WORKS!!!!!

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

I'm another one who is (if I recall correctly) guilty of the Philippa's van thing. Previous to this thread, I genuinely thought it was innocuous. I had no concept that it would be offensive, as in, at all. Reading this thread has educated / enlightened me that the opposite is true. I guess I've never ever thought to take a viewpoint from the female perspective. 

I'll be honest and say that I think I'm going to have a tough job maintaining an appropriate view point at all times. Don't gt me wrong, I have never wolf whistled at anybody in my life, and I'm not really one for coming out with corny jokes at someone else's expense. It's just that it seems like a bit of a mine field;

 

You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.

Abraham Lincoln

[Doug85]

1 hour ago, Quark said:

Grrrrrr!  That always winds me up.  The advantage I've got in that is that I'm quite able (and happy!) to plant my feet and just not move when you see one coming. If people are actually asking to squeeze through then I'm happy to move, but 99% of the time trying to bulldoze through doesn't generally work with me

The other one I'd add to that is people squeezing through a gap, ostensibly to move through the crowd, and then stopping in the tiny-non-gap you just created for them to move through.  THAT'S NOT HOW THIS WORKS!!!!!

I hate both of these but especially the last one, When i've moved back to allow them room to walk through and they fill that room where do they then expect me to go? I usually end up saying something now but i never used to, I'd just spend the rest of the time uncomfortable but not anymore. I usually just get a roll of the eyes and them moving as a response though- they can roll their eyes as much as they like as long as they move ?

[ourkid1984]

3 hours ago, slash's hat said:

Firstly, good for you for intervening, if it were me then it would have been welcome. Though I would probably just have moved carriages myself and just felt annoyed the whole day. Not a criticism here, but maybe if you had asked her if she would like you to say something then that gives her the control over her own situation.

Or the other way of looking at it was if those lads hadn't acted in that manner, she still would have gone about her day happily, and you would have had no aggro.

I agree we are a long way from having the right balance. The article below, whilst lengthy, is interesting when we consider the generational differences that have been mentioned a couple of times in this thread.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/may/11/how-metoo-revealed-the-central-rift-within-feminism-social-individualist

 

In better circumstances I would of asked her. I stepped in a bit too soon I think but I think I did that as they had moreless surrounded her.

Thanks for that article. I found it interesting and actually makes sense to what's happening currently. Personally I prefer collective action but whatever works I suppose. 

[ourkid1984]

2 hours ago, Quark said:

Grrrrrr!  That always winds me up.  The advantage I've got in that is that I'm quite able (and happy!) to plant my feet and just not move when you see one coming. If people are actually asking to squeeze through then I'm happy to move, but 99% of the time trying to bulldoze through doesn't generally work with me

The other one I'd add to that is people squeezing through a gap, ostensibly to move through the crowd, and then stopping in the tiny-non-gap you just created for them to move through.  THAT'S NOT HOW THIS WORKS!!!!!

Yeah I am fairly slim but have built up strategies to ensure that I make it at least a little harder for them to get through.

The fake gap is excruciatingly annoying and have been known to purposely dance a little harder than normal just to remind them that I'm still there. After that they often move on.

[Quark]

12 minutes ago, ourkid1984 said:

Yeah I am fairly slim but have built up strategies to ensure that I make it at least a little harder for them to get through.

The fake gap is excruciatingly annoying and have been known to purposely dance a little harder than normal just to remind them that I'm still there. After that they often move on.

I had a guy at Rolling Blackouts the other night just gradually drift sideways until he was right in front of me with about a 6 inch gap.  It was only during the support act, and I could see he was gradually drifting out of the orbit of three very pissed dancers, but there was sooo much room he could have gone literally anywhere! Like, so much rom that didn't involve being that close to anyone!

It was a toss up between asking him to move or just standing my ground and pretty much breathing into his ear until he moved on. I opted for the latter

[ourkid1984]

8 minutes ago, Quark said:

I had a guy at Rolling Blackouts the other night just gradually drift sideways until he was right in front of me with about a 6 inch gap.  It was only during the support act, and I could see he was gradually drifting out of the orbit of three very pissed dancers, but there was sooo much room he could have gone literally anywhere! Like, so much rom that didn't involve being that close to anyone!

It was a toss up between asking him to move or just standing my ground and pretty much breathing into his ear until he moved on. I opted for the latter

Breathing in the ear ? I hope they moved.

[Quark]

2 minutes ago, ourkid1984 said:

Breathing in the ear ? I hope they moved.

Worked surprisingly well!

[guypjfreak]

22 hours ago, Quark said:

 

Right, Glade meet was 2016 because I ditched my crowd to come find you, but couldn't find anyone. Went on as there was something happening at Croissant Neuf bit couldn't find anyone there either.

Last year was supposed to be NYBB on The Gateway stage (I think of it as a riser so my bad) but I don't think may turned up there, so I think we wandered back to R&F. I clocked @guypjfreak loitering on the edge so completely respected his right to anonymity by barreling over and saying hi. Gumby dished out some mead. The we ended up on Dusty's table chucking limes about, and it all went pear-shaped after that.

I remember having some mead 

[stuartbert two hats]

3 minutes ago, guypjfreak said:

I remember having some mead 

I remember having some mead. The rest, not so much.

[StupidDream]

7 hours ago, Quark said:

I had a guy at Rolling Blackouts the other night just gradually drift sideways until he was right in front of me with about a 6 inch gap.  It was only during the support act, and I could see he was gradually drifting out of the orbit of three very pissed dancers, but there was sooo much room he could have gone literally anywhere! Like, so much rom that didn't involve being that close to anyone!

It was a toss up between asking him to move or just standing my ground and pretty much breathing into his ear until he moved on. I opted for the latter

This happens at about every other gig I go to, and always try to stand my ground. 

I often go to gigs with a friend of mine and afterwards we always discuss the people in the crowd surrounding us, and how annoying they were. It has sort of become part of the experience. We do share a healthy hate for people in general - thank god we have music

[MetaKate]

47 minutes ago, StupidDream said:

This happens at about every other gig I go to, and always try to stand my ground. 

I often go to gigs with a friend of mine and afterwards we always discuss the people in the crowd surrounding us, and how annoying they were. It has sort of become part of the experience. We do share a healthy hate for people in general - thank god we have music

I actually make a point of trying to meet/engage with everyone around me. It feels amazing to be dancing around people you've met to some extent and know theres a connection so it wont be a problem. Once in a while it doesnt work, and I have people look at me like I have horns, but its worth the effort. If I'm in area where everyone is looking at me like I have horns, then I move to an area with better vibes!