Are we In or Out?

[Gnomicide]

If Leave does win, shouldn't UKIP fuck off, job done? 

Just trying to find a silver lining. 

[paulo999]

 

17 minutes ago, Gnomicide said:

If Leave does win, shouldn't UKIP fuck off, job done? 

Just trying to find a silver lining. 

They won't. With years of negotiations with the EU that will follow, they'll be hanging around, being little Englanders as ever, but emboldened.

Edited June 11, 2016 by paulo999

[Wooderson]

What is "England, Wales and Northern Ireland" going to be called in a couple years?

[Spindles]

The disunited kingdom.  Small D, Small K.  We won't deserve capitals.

[SwedgeAntilles]

12 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

What is "England, Wales and Northern Ireland" going to be called in a couple years?

Decent Britain? 

[sedra]

Postal vote completed today. United we stand, divided we fall.  Or as Wales demonstrated so well today - we can be part of something and do our own thing as well ! 

[Mardy]

1 hour ago, Wooderson said:

What is "England, Wales and Northern Ireland" going to be called in a couple years?

An utter irrelevance to the rest of the world. Won't matter what the official name is, no one will know/care or notice.

[Wooderson]

At this rate I hope yis vote out.

Sorry to say this but if the great and the good can't outdo the poorly informed leave campaign, Bojo 'n Gove - really??, then you don't *deserve* to remain. Pure laziness that their rotten lies haven't been roasted publicly. 

Campaign tiresome/laughable to me now. To hear the Unionists in the North of Ireland campaigning to leave makes it even more lolworthy. 

[eFestivals]

19 hours ago, RichardWaller said:

Yeah, trident has been agreed by parliament but we don't have to accept things just because they've been agreed by parliament.

When the PM won't accept things that have been agreed by Parliament, we have a problem.

Perhaps have a think about that?

[eFestivals]

17 hours ago, Mardy said:

Been pondering this on my way to work and back today. I've got a properly bad feeling about this, and it's getting worse daily. I tell you this, if the Outs win, and wreck the fucking country, i'll not be able to forgive them. I suspect i'm not alone and there could be a lot of rancour floating around afterwards.

That'll be how it is whichever way it goes.

The only difference with attitudes to the outcome will be in the follow-on part. For the kippers it'll be day one of their campaign for another referendum, while the remainers will have t0o suck it up knowing there's no way back.

 

12 hours ago, Wooderson said:

What is "England, Wales and Northern Ireland" going to be called in a couple years?

England Wales and Northern Ireland, same as now. And still part of the UK, same as now. As will be Scotland.

What Sturgeon was previously saying would be "a democratic outrage" has suddenly become "a bit unfair". I think there might be a clue there.

I could also point at Sturgeon just having made a statement which guarantees that Scotland cannot meet EU entry criteria - and again, there's a clue there.

Edited June 12, 2016 by eFestivals

[Mardy]

37 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

That'll be how it is whichever way it goes.

The only difference with attitudes to the outcome will be in the follow-on part. For the kippers it'll be day one of their campaign for another referendum, while the remainers will have t0o suck it up knowing there's no way back.

 

 

You think? I dunno, I can see severe, sudden economic repercussions of a leave vote; recession, sterling going down the pan, businesses leaving very quickly. If we stay, then no-one really will be any worse off, but if we go and it all goes tits up, the ones who wanted to remain will be incredibly frustrated I think, on a personal level, not so much about campaigns etc. As soon as job losses start mounting up, there's a direct correlation between 'you voted out, and I've lost my job'

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Mardy said:

You think? I dunno, I can see severe, sudden economic repercussions of a leave vote; recession, sterling going down the pan, businesses leaving very quickly. If we stay, then no-one really will be any worse off, but if we go and it all goes tits up, the ones who wanted to remain will be incredibly frustrated I think, on a personal level, not so much about campaigns etc. As soon as job losses start mounting up, there's a direct correlation between 'you voted out, and I've lost my job'

the most, I reckon, that'll come about via stuff like that is that some people who'd voted out will start to claim they'd voted remain.

It'll be pretty difficult to make that direct link in most cases of business failure, tho, I think. Businesses fail anyway, and there won't be many where almost all their business is with the EU, so there'll be space to cast doubt on any stated reason for a failure.

At the end of the day if leave win then we have to suck it up and get on with things, to try and make the best out of the changed situation. There's some benefits from out that aren't available if in from a left-ish perspective so we should pursue them.

[Mardy]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

the most, I reckon, that'll come about via stuff like that is that some people who'd voted out will start to claim they'd voted remain.

It'll be pretty difficult to make that direct link in most cases of business failure, tho, I think. Businesses fail anyway, and there won't be many where almost all their business is with the EU, so there'll be space to cast doubt on any stated reason for a failure.

At the end of the day if leave win then we have to suck it up and get on with things, to try and make the best out of the changed situation. There's some benefits from out that aren't available if in from a left-ish perspective so we should pursue them.

Yeah absolutely.

I know in my heart from 20 years of experience of working abroad that Out would be a disaster, but like Wooderson said earler, I'm so disappointed in the Remain campaign, that i wouldn't be surprised if the Outs win. The question is what happens then, I guess. Sure there are possible potential benefits, but I just get the feeling that the ruling class just makes sure any potential for those never come to pass. I'm absolutely certain that the likes of Farage, Boris and Gove are not going to suddenly improve workers rights etc, and if people are too disenfranchised from the system to to vote remain, then the chances of them getting organised to resist are pretty fucking minor.

 

Dunno, maybe I'm just feeling gloomy about the whole thing today, but I can't see anythhing good coming out of this.

[Woffy]

17 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

the most, I reckon, that'll come about via stuff like that is that some people who'd voted out will start to claim they'd voted remain.

It'll be pretty difficult to make that direct link in most cases of business failure, tho, I think. Businesses fail anyway, and there won't be many where almost all their business is with the EU, so there'll be space to cast doubt on any stated reason for a failure.

At the end of the day if leave win then we have to suck it up and get on with things, to try and make the best out of the changed situation. There's some benefits from out that aren't available if in from a left-ish perspective so we should pursue them.

Agree.

Although with regards to outers later claiming they voted remain there'll need to be a lot of deleting required on people's Facebook profiles.

I'm no lover or great user of FB, but do have it, and it is fucking depressingly awash with the most puerile little England Brexit nonsense from the most surprising people based on nothing even approaching a considered argument to the extent that I've unfollowed dozens of 'friends'.

I know, serves me right for engaging with the thing but I'm genuinely stunned at some people's attitudes; work colleagues especially so.

Equally saddening in a different way are the numerous posts I've read from Remainers about how Europe probably hopes we exit so the EU can prevent of football 'fans' crossing their borders.

I had the unenviable task of trying to explain the thuggery in Marseille to my two young daughters last night when they innocently asked "Why...?"

Edited June 12, 2016 by Woffy
Spelling.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, Mardy said:

Yeah absolutely.

I know in my heart from 20 years of experience of working abroad that Out would be a disaster, but like Wooderson said earler, I'm so disappointed in the Remain campaign, that i wouldn't be surprised if the Outs win. The question is what happens then, I guess. Sure there are possible potential benefits, but I just get the feeling that the ruling class just makes sure any potential for those never come to pass. I'm absolutely certain that the likes of Farage, Boris and Gove are not going to suddenly improve workers rights etc, and if people are too disenfranchised from the system to to vote remain, then the chances of them getting organised to resist are pretty fucking minor.

 

Dunno, maybe I'm just feeling gloomy about the whole thing today, but I can't see anythhing good coming out of this.

Yep,... but it's not just the raving right who's bought into the idea that things couldn't be any worse, and that we only need to penalise 'them' and all of our problems will be solved. I think plenty are missing this shared side of things.

 

 

[Woffy]

Just now, Scruffylovemonster said:

EWNI

W(h)INE

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, Scruffylovemonster said:

EWNI

 

1 minute ago, Woffy said:

W(h)INE

Really, Scotland ain't leaving. At least, not anytime soon, the EU is not a tipping factor.

 

[Woffy]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

Really, Scotland ain't leaving. At least, not anytime soon, the EU is not a tipping factor.

 

What do you teckon to the 'domino effect' of other EU states wanting to leave if the UK does which the news channels now seem to be latched onto as a story?

Other than Italy - who basically do what they want and don't really care what anyone thinks - I just can't see it...nor how a mere concept warrants so much TV coverage. 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

Really, Scotland ain't leaving. At least, not anytime soon, the EU is not a tipping factor.

Actually, I'll amend that slightly....

At least, not anytime soon, the EU is not a tipping factor at this moment in time, when we might leave.

I can't really rule it out further than now, because of the effects of leaving might have to then change minds about it. Leaving won't cause a 2nd indyref (but if it does, it won't be won) just by itself, but the effects of leaving a bit further down the line might do.

[Wooderson]

It hardly weakens the Sweaty cause.

[Mr.Tease]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

the most, I reckon, that'll come about via stuff like that is that some people who'd voted out will start to claim they'd voted remain.

It'll be pretty difficult to make that direct link in most cases of business failure, tho, I think. Businesses fail anyway, and there won't be many where almost all their business is with the EU, so there'll be space to cast doubt on any stated reason for a failure.

At the end of the day if leave win then we have to suck it up and get on with things, to try and make the best out of the changed situation. There's some benefits from out that aren't available if in from a left-ish perspective so we should pursue them.

My main concern is that that post-eu uk would be shaped by the tories and ukip, so expect attempts to undercut European rivals with shitter pay and conditions, business regulations etc

[SwedgeAntilles]

There won't be another indy ref until polling has swung sufficiently in Yes' favour (i.e. up to 55% or above) as they can't afford to lose a second. As Neil says leaving the EU won't in itself cause that kind of shift, but if things do start shifting downwards as a result of our exit it plays into Yes' hands. As Woody says, it's not going to weaken the cause. 

An Brexit, followed by a Tory victory at a snap GE with the potential of Johnson and Gove as PM and Chancellor respectively could see support for independence creeping back up again.

[alanr]

18 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

I try to console myself with the idea that at least Cameron would be gone, but then I realise his replacement is likely Boris, plus UKIP will likely have a surge in support, and then suddenly I feel like I'm staring at the apocalypse... 

But we are stuck with a tory government for the next 4 years whatever happens.

In the event of a leave vote I do not see how cameron & osborne can continue, and agree that we could end out with the nightmare scenario of bj as pm.

What worries  me almost as much is that after a stay vote the tories will have to regroup and show a united front. I suspect this will mean prominent positions for boris, gove and ids. So we end out rules by the worst possible tory government.

I really hope I a wrong

[RichardWaller]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

When the PM won't accept things that have been agreed by Parliament, we have a problem.

Perhaps have a think about that?

I was talking about Parliament doing things that the public haven't agreed with. If I meant PM not having to accept things I'd have said PM not having to accept things.

[DeanoL]

9 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Actually, I'll amend that slightly....

At least, not anytime soon, the EU is not a tipping factor at this moment in time, when we might leave.

I can't really rule it out further than now, because of the effects of leaving might have to then change minds about it. Leaving won't cause a 2nd indyref (but if it does, it won't be won) just by itself, but the effects of leaving a bit further down the line might do.

I think it depends how the exit vote goes. If we vote to leave but Scotland vote strongly to stay, it's a fairly powerful case. Especially if certain issues with membership can be addressed - issues that are going to be easier to address when Westminster doesn't have a veto.

What's looking more likely though is England voting to leave, with the Scots being responsible for keeping us in, which is going to open up some interesting new questions.

8 hours ago, alanr said:

But we are stuck with a tory government for the next 4 years whatever happens.

Even with the fixed term parliament act, a two-thirds majority can vote to dissolve parliament, or a no-confidence motion could be passed with a simple majority, if the Tories get enough backbenchers on side (and most of Labour don't hate Corbyn so much that they refuse to go along with it).