news & politics:discussion

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yeah, but they are racist.

Erhaps but racism isn't always the driver of the thing that get called out as racist. People who dislike the levels of immigration are not driven only by a dislike of fortune. There other factors in the mix.

[Matt42]

9 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

So what you’re saying is.... Labour have done bad everywhere as a result of pasokification seen across the world after the failure of neoliberal third way politics and despite you admitting that they have in fact lost more votes in Scotland and Wales and are basically universally unpopular - its all the Norths fault.

Sometimes your idiocy knows no bounds. 

No. Labour haven’t done well because they’ve pursued a political direction that is alien to a lot of the country. They can’t backtrack on this move because it will alienate the metropolitan youth vote that they’ve picked up recently.

They have lost Scotland and Wales because they don’t engage with nationalism. Scottish people want to be Scottish. Welsh people want to be Welsh. If Labour embrace nationalism they lose the students.

Losing the north is the last straw. They can’t rely on seats from Scotland and Wales to boost their totals up anymore. They are losing constituencies they desperately need.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Matt42

[Fuzzy Afro]

Labour post election bingo 

 

- The voters aren’t doing what they said on the doorstep

 

- We won the argument 

 

- The voters are idiots

 

- Left wingers blaming centrists

 

- Centrist blaming the left 

[ace56blaa]

20 minutes ago, Zacko said:

Yeah, Cornwall isn't exactly known for being an economic powerhouse or a left leaning bastion is it!? 17 areas in Cornwall are in the poorest 10% in the entire country, so it's got way more in common with other deprived parts of the UK than anywhere else. It just looks nice if you stay on the coast. 

(I'm from Camborne, which says all you need to know)

Not that St Ives, St Ives next to Huntingdon, Peterborough (which has been named worst town to live in the Uk 3 years running) but yet I have Cambridge near me too, so everyone assumes I'm rich, but yeah it sucks living paycheck to paycheck being told you are rich

[ace56blaa]

@Barry Fish Did you think I lived in St Ives Cornwall this entire time?

[steviewevie]

8 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

That’s fine, I’m hopeful that in time people will want to support better funded public services with the right messaging from the Labour Party

people do want better funded public services...I'm not sure why some on here think they don't...maybe because they don't. Johnson is promising better funded public services, especially in those red wall seats. Whether it will actually happen is another thing.

[steviewevie]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Erhaps but racism isn't always the driver of the thing that get called out as racist. People who dislike the levels of immigration are not driven only by a dislike of fortune. There other factors in the mix.

yeah, of course...I know it's complicated and I shouldn't call people racist.

But...I have seen and heard a lot of it in this country, and I'm white.

[Matt42]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

yeah, of course...I know it's complicated and I shouldn't call people racist.

But...I have seen and heard a lot of it in this country, and I'm white.

If British culture has a race problem it has to admit that the empire was very flawed. It has to admit that British culture was founded on these principles.

They aren’t ready to do it. They may never be ready. British people would rather deny their behaviour may be racist than move on. A party that talks about Britain being racist will never go down well.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

yeah, of course...I know it's complicated and I shouldn't call people racist.

But...I have seen and heard a lot of it in this country, and I'm white.

It exists I'm not suggesting it doesn't.

But overall us Brits are accommodating of immigrants and some people are too quick to shout racist.

[Ozanne]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

people do want better funded public services...I'm not sure why some on here think they don't...maybe because they don't. Johnson is promising better funded public services, especially in those red wall seats. Whether it will actually happen is another thing.

I guess that’s the thing isn’t it, if Johnson doesn’t deliver on these promises then what happens?

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Matt42 said:

If British culture has a race problem it has to admit that the empire was very flawed. It has to admit that British culture was founded on these principles.

They aren’t ready to do it. They may never be ready. British people would rather deny their behaviour may be racist than move on. A party that talks about Britain being racist will never go down well.

 

[mattiloy]

5 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

No. Labour haven’t done well because they’ve pursued a political direction that is alien to a lot of the country. They can’t backtrack on this move because it will alienate the metropolitan youth vote that they’ve picked up recently.

They have lost Scotland and Wales because they don’t engage with nationalism. Scottish people want to be Scottish. Welsh people want to be Welsh. If Labour embrace nationalism they lose the students.

Losing the north is the last straw. They can’t rely on seats from Scotland and Wales to boost their totals up anymore. They are losing constituencies they desperately need.

Corbyn should have reaffirmed his commitment to brexit and never gone for the peoples vote.

The next leader needs to do this and they need to commit to humane immigration control.

They can afford to lose some of the woke city dwellers on this.

But won’t do if they match it with wealth taxes, nationalise rail etc etc.

Thats the winning formula.

 

10 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

That’s fine, I’m hopeful that in time people will want to support better funded public services with the right messaging from the Labour Party.

 

They do already, google polling on it, its all there, people in the uk are mainly left wing on economics.

[ace56blaa]

1 minute ago, Barry Fish said:

I don't care lol 

Spends whole night attacking me on where I live and now he doesn't care. 

FYI people who don't care don't need to comment as such on a forum. Protesting too much and all that. 

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Corbyn should have reaffirmed his commitment to brexit and never gone for the peoples vote.

Labour upport would have collapsed more if he'd been honest abbout his support for brexit. He worked his own ignorant fuddge his in fudge by suggesting a rehegation of terms was possible. Cameron had just tried and failed.

3 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

The next leader needs to do this and they need to commit to humane immigration control.

 

Labour need to do something such as say what would be too much immigration.

It's the impression they give of accepting any number which causes the issue.

 

3 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

They can afford to lose some of the woke city dwellers on this.

But won’t do if they match it with wealth taxes, nationalise rail etc etc.

Thats the winning formula.

 

They do already, google polling on it, its all there, people in the uk are mainly left wing on economics.

 

[DeanoL]

 

3 hours ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

It takes a special kind of dunce to conclude that places like Hartlepool are lining up to give the Tories a stomping majority because Starmer isn’t left wing enough 😂😂😂

Well Hartlepool isn't a single person - there's lots of different people there. There's enough left-wingers there to have Corbyn win it twice even with one of Neil's sex pests as the MP. But maybe only if UKIP split the Tory vote.

It seems likely that if we still had Corbynism, Labour's numbers would be similar, but the Tories would reclaim the UKIP vote, thereby still winning the seat but only by a small margin. With Starmer, the lefties have either abandoned them or not bothered to vote, and he's failed to attract any of those centrist Tory voters also - so the Tories win by a huge margin. So would Labour have done better if they were more left wing? Yes.

But does that matter in a FPTP system if the UKIP vote going back to the Tories means they still lost, just not by as much? No, not really. 

3 hours ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Question for you and others....

 

What percentage of the electorate does not vote for the party who’s policies would leave them and their families best off?

 

I’d venture that it’s very very small. 

Well, let me flip that around. The Tories keep getting in, last time with a 44% vote share. What percentage of the electorate do you think the Tories make better off? The UK median wage is £31.4K

So 50% of people earn over 31.4K. 44% of people vote Tory. Are Tories really making everyone who earns around 35K or more better off do you think?

I think it's more like the top 20%, 30% at best that the Tories help out. I think the rest would be better off under Labour. I think the problem is the Tories make people believe that, with a bit of hard work, they'll soon be in that 20-30% so they should vote for them now. The reality is for most people that isn't true.

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

The results need to be compared with corbyns first locals before deciding on them cos they we declared as a victory.

Which at the time you said wasn't the case?

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

 

It seems likely that if we still had Corbynism, Labour's numbers would be similar,

 

 

Not so much they want representation that oputs them first not someone who prioritises Ireland over the UK.

Quote

 

 

 

but the Tories would reclaim the UKIP vote, thereby still winning the seat but only by a small margin. With Starmer, the lefties have either abandoned them or not bothered to vote, and he's failed to attract any of those centrist Tory voters also - so the Tories win by a huge margin. So would Labour have done better if they were more left wing? Yes.

But does that matter in a FPTP system if the UKIP vote going back to the Tories means they still lost, just not by as much? No, not really. 

Well, let me flip that around. The Tories keep getting in, last time with a 44% vote share. What percentage of the electorate do you think the Tories make better off? The UK median wage is £31.4K

So 50% of people earn over 31.4K. 44% of people vote Tory. Are Tories really making everyone who earns around 35K or more better off do you think?

I think it's more like the top 20%, 30% at best that the Tories help out. I think the rest would be better off under Labour. I think the problem is the Tories make people believe that, with a bit of hard work, they'll soon be in that 20-30% so they should vote for them now. The reality is for most people that isn't true.

Which at the time you said wasn't the case?

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by eFestivals

[Zacko]

36 minutes ago, ace56blaa said:

Not that St Ives, St Ives next to Huntingdon, Peterborough (which has been named worst town to live in the Uk 3 years running) but yet I have Cambridge near me too, so everyone assumes I'm rich, but yeah it sucks living paycheck to paycheck being told you are rich

Interesting, didn't know there were two St Ives'! 

 

[BobWillis2]

Labour and their voters are so far disconnected from what the average British person wants in a government it’s unbelievable. 
If they weren’t so busy infighting and finger pointing they might finally start taking notes. 
The biggest problem Labour have now is they’re stuck between a rock and a hard place, try and win back the working class vote and they’ll alienate their socialist, communist, woke, flag hating voter base. Try and please their aforementioned voter base and they’ll lose the working class forever. 

[HalfAnIdiot]

13 minutes ago, Zacko said:

Interesting, didn't know there were two St Ives'! 

 

Always worth knowing if a SatNav is involved.. 

[Haan]

1 minute ago, BobWillis2 said:

Labour and their voters are so far disconnected from what the average British person wants in a government it’s unbelievable. 
If they weren’t so busy infighting and finger pointing they might finally start taking notes. 
The biggest problem Labour have now is they’re stuck between a rock and a hard place, try and win back the working class vote and they’ll alienate their socialist, communist, woke, flag hating voter base. Try and please their aforementioned voter base and they’ll lose the working class forever. 

"working class" Hartlepool where most own their own homes vs "working class" woke Londoners on min wage hmmm.

You are right that the Labour are disconnected with what the average British person wants, but no one in this thread (me included) seem to have a coherent idea of what Labour should even do to remedy that.

[not worthy]

1 hour ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Labour post election bingo 

 

- The voters aren’t doing what they said on the doorstep

 

- We won the argument 

 

- The voters are idiots

 

- Left wingers blaming centrists

 

- Centrist blaming the left 

Stockholm syndrome

[Mimo]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Erhaps but racism isn't always the driver of the thing that get called out as racist. People who dislike the levels of immigration are not driven only by a dislike of fortune. There other factors in the mix.

I grew up in a country pub. Spend enough time behind a bar and you’ll hear a LOT of xenophobic views from a lot of different people. Some a lot worse than others, mostly little r racist rather than big overt cross burning Racist, but there is in my experience a lot of closet racism amongst the white folk in this country. Ie if someone with brown skin walks in the pub it goes a bit quiet. Imagine the conversation around the sunday dinner tables in these peoples houses, multiply that out over the country. 
 

Xenophobia was far from the only factor behind the Brexit vote, but it was imo a very large part of it. All that lot proudly vote Tory today. 

[BobWillis2]

“we’ve already killed the Labour Party.  Let us kill it some more” 

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Mimo said:

I grew up in a country pub. Spend enough time behind a bar and you’ll hear a LOT of xenophobic views from a lot of different people. Some a lot worse than others, mostly little r racist rather than big overt cross burning Racist, but there is in my experience a lot of closet racism amongst the white folk in this country. Ie if someone with brown skin walks in the pub it goes a bit quiet. Imagine the conversation around the sunday dinner tables in these peoples houses, multiply that out over the country. 
 

Xenophobia was far from the only factor behind the Brexit vote, but it was imo a very large part of it. All that lot proudly vote Tory today. 

I'm not oblivious to the fact it's out there I was very surprised about ten years ago in a car repair place in Bristol at some of the language the owner used I never went back. Not what I expected in bristrol

[Ryan1984]

3 hours ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

 

A majority of voters in the UK favour bringing back hanging for murderers. I personally don’t think murderers should be hanged, but adults who use scooters should absolutely get the electric chair. 

I didn’t watch it but didn’t some guy on Question Time last night get angry that we didn’t sink the French fisherman’s boats?