When will this shit end?

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, ace56blaa said:

Ah the fucking magic money tree argument. You realise that is a stupid tory propaganda thing, "Whose gonna pay for all this?" they cry until it is about wasting million and billions of tax payers money on tory contracts that amount to nothing. 

The truth is the economy can support a lot more borrowing than you think, the idea of a national deficit is gravely exaggerated. Something to do with the ease of being able to sell bonds to make up the deficit. 

Someone put a video about it on here a long long time ago, never been able to find it since, so if anyone knows what im talking about please chime in, but essentially the idea that there's no magic money tree is hilarious, when they spaff billions up the wall on failed PPE and then tell you there's not enough for furlough 

Does this help?

 

[Crazyfool01]

30 pages till 2000 😞 

[Andre91]

I’ve just received an email from my Principal about start of term plans. Considering that it has been pushed back to stop great numbers of people gathering at school, we have been told that all staff have to be in Monday as usual and that we are to stream our lessons via MST from in school. 
 

What is the point? We are expecting 100+ students in on Monday who are on the key worker and/or vulnerable list, so what is the need for 150+ staff to be in too? 
 

Currently unsure whether this is just my school’s approach (who have a history of demoralising staff as it is) or whether this is what all schools are being told must happen on Monday. I’ve messaged a few mates who work elsewhere to see what they’ve been told but they haven’t received any news from their superiors yet. 
 

I’m currently feeling baffled.

[steviewevie]

9 minutes ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

I've spent 13 years working I local government I've seen what 40% budget cuts do to public services - and I've seen who it is that suffers. I've seen what a 50% reduction in workforce does and who suffers as a result. 

As long as I've got a hole in my arse there is going to be some book balancing with the Tories in power - and all the while they are in power is the public services and their users who are going to suffer the most. 

Nearly all the LA's in the country are on the verge of bankruptcy as a direct result of Covid so even if the Tory's don't cut their budgets they will be balancing the books themselves. The wasted billions although criminal is just s drop in the oceon to the true cost of Covid. 

yeah, it's a political choice in the end...tories have been doing a lot of cuts to local govt so they don't get the blame for all the shit. As far as I can see Sunak is old school tory so we may just see more cuts as well as tax cuts...but really while borrowing is cheap they should keep spending to help the recovery.

[xxialac]

https://www.france24.com/en/uk/20201231-boris-johnson-s-father-seeks-french-citizenship-as-post-brexit-deal-ends-free-movement

[ShakeyCrash]

43 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I haven’t looked into the figures but the argument is that those businesses are now being forced to shut (or shut earlier than they would have) because Sunak wanted people to Eat Out. Even if it did help some businesses the added burden it’s now put on NHS Trusts in certain regions could cost more both economically and in livelihoods. They shouldn’t have had the scheme but given our better support to hospitality businesses throughout. 

I've not heard businesses shutting earlier because of it.  The opposite if anything and also this was done in August when hospitalizations were low.  Combined with the fact people were on 100 % pay (furlough only being 80 %) I see a lot of benefits and struggle to see why it is viewed so badly by some but as always will keep an open mind.

23 minutes ago, ace56blaa said:

Also not blaming eat out to help out solely. The problem was the government did that and then opened millions of over thigns too early, like 30 person weddings and arcades, the government was incapable of making any concessions on the economy opening more stuff up after their scientific advisors said they were at the threshold then they opened schools and forced people back to offices. 

That is the problem not one thing alone, but doing things like eat out to help out whilst pretending the virus had been defeated and that we'd be back to normal by christmas. 

I even thought "maybe this is going to be over soon" because of the messaging

This I agree on.  They opened things up too close together and not in a staged way, and they also felt the briefing were no longer beneficial.  People acted accordingly and didn't stop acting this way until shit got real.

22 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Again I’m not saying keep people locked up, you seem to like it as you mention it a lot. I’m saying with regards to Eat Out, maybe don’t actively encourage people to go out to restaurants which are an ideal place for viruses to spread (people eating, face masks being put on and off etc). It’s about more nuanced than you are suggesting. 

But this comes back to my point.  How much of the spread was increased by this versus the benefits?  I think certain things have resulted in an uptick and agree the mistake is posturing rather than being more decisive in bringing lock downs back in as they are the only things that really work. 

I just think that it was good for businesses and good for people to have a release.  Also I absolutely rinsed it and liked the idea of helping out while stuffing my face for half price 🙂 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, ShakeyCrash said:

I've not heard businesses shutting earlier because of it.  The opposite if anything and also this was done in August when hospitalizations were low.  Combined with the fact people were on 100 % pay (furlough only being 80 %) I see a lot of benefits and struggle to see why it is viewed so badly by some but as always will keep an open mind.

This I agree on.  They opened things up too close together and not in a staged way, and they also felt the briefing were no longer beneficial.  People acted accordingly and didn't stop acting this way until shit got real.

But this comes back to my point.  How much of the spread was increased by this versus the benefits?  I think certain things have resulted in an uptick and agree the mistake is posturing rather than being more decisive in bringing lock downs back in as they are the only things that really work. 

I just think that it was good for businesses and good for people to have a release.  Also I absolutely rinsed it and liked the idea of helping out while stuffing my face for half price 🙂 

Sorry by saying businesses shut early because of Eat Out, I meant that the rising cases associated with the scheme meant businesses might have been forced to close earlier than they would’ve due to local lockdowns. 

[fraybentos1]

2 hours ago, zahidf said:

 

@Ozanne no apology necessary x 

[Crazyfool01]

Todays numbers soon 😞 strapping in 😞 

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

39 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

You mean the magic money tree that has given billions to the Tories mates? Funny how the money is available in some circumstances but in others when it comes to giving money to poorer people it isn’t.

Are you sure about your last point? Have a look in some other countries they seem to be managing it quite nicely with an effective test and trace program.

Again I’m not saying keep people locked up, you seem to like it as you mention it a lot. I’m saying with regards to Eat Out, maybe don’t actively encourage people to go out to restaurants which are an ideal place for viruses to spread (people eating, face masks being put on and off etc). It’s more nuanced than you are suggesting. 

 

43 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I don’t need your patronisation about what certain job roles do, thanks though.

I’ve said the government have acted too late on all the advice, I’ve said that quite a few times.

We know what HAS happened, we know they acted too late and we know as a result we have one of the largest death counts in the world and one of the largest recessions. As I’ve said that’s the worst of each world and is just one item of proof that the government have failed. You are giving the government a free pass over their handling of the pandemic because we don’t know what might have happened at the time, you’re missing the point that the government had warnings and chose at the time not to act.
 

If it was happening just once then fair enough but it isn’t, it’s happening over and over again to the point now where it’s negligence. That’s why I gave you more examples than just Scientists, when is it a wake up call to you that all these trends are pointing to the people making the decisions that are the problem or are you going to keep your head in the sand over it?

Please can you point out where I have said I wanted people kept in lockdown? I’ve had a look and I don’t think I’ve said it. I’ve said I wanted the government to act on the warnings, if they had done we might not have needed so many forms of lockdown. I don’t want people kept in lockdowns but if they are needed then we should enact it quickly and put sufficient financial support in place for businesses and workers when they isolate.

I have no idea if they purposely act to make bad decisions. I have a feeling they act with the intentions of prioritising certain people first and ensuring their acquaintances can profit off the situation. I believe their main priority is ensuring the NHS doesn’t collapse as the PR fallout from that would destroy their electoral hopes. 

You see everything as a purely linear process. Its not a one to one relationship between action and consequence. 

Furlough doesn't protect businesses from going bust and the damage that does to economies in the long term it's a short term solution because the companies these people work for can't survive on life support forever.

All the while there is a Tory government the public sector will foot the bill because it's another chip away at the ultimate goal of the Tories - the death of the public sector. 

You have often said we should be locked down - but that doesn't fix the problem it just moves it. Its like flooding, you can build defenses, it doesn't stop the flood happening it just moves where it's happening. Lockdown doesn't fix the problem, it moves it from the NHS to the economy the government (and all their advisors) have yet to find the balancing point.

Edited December 31, 2020 by RobertProsineckisLighter

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

@Ozanne no apology necessary x 

None given because that wasn’t what you said. You said it can’t be spread by touch when it can, as confirmed by my link to the WHO yesterday. Have you read that article, because I have and it confirms it can be transmitted through touch we just need to wash hands more not clean surfaces:

They explained that while other viruses, such as rhinovirus and norovirus, are transmitted through contaminated surfaces—known as “fomites”—evidence suggests that such transmission is not common with the coronavirus. And any potential fomite transmission from the coronavirus can be prevented through regular handwashing or use of hand sanitizer, according to the authors.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Ozanne

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

22 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yeah, it's a political choice in the end...tories have been doing a lot of cuts to local govt so they don't get the blame for all the shit. As far as I can see Sunak is old school tory so we may just see more cuts as well as tax cuts...but really while borrowing is cheap they should keep spending to help the recovery.

Yep he's up their with Gove in aspiration for getting rid of public services they just see both of them as a needless expense - it's the people who need to use thems fault for not having a library at home or being unemployed. 

[ShakeyCrash]

1 minute ago, crazyfool1 said:

Todays numbers soon 😞 strapping in 😞 

How are the UK numbers reported nowadays and are they consistently on time now?  I'm just concentrating on the Welsh numbers at the moment

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, ShakeyCrash said:

How are the UK numbers reported nowadays and are they consistently on time now?  I'm just concentrating on the Welsh numbers at the moment

they have been of late yes ... around 4pm ... Which no doubt means they will be late today 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

 

You see everything as a purely linear process. Its not a one to one relationship between action and consequence. 

Furlough doesn't protect businesses from going bust and the damage that does to economies in the long term it's a short term solution because the companies these people work for can't survive on life support forever.

All the while there is a Tory government the public sector will foot the bill because it's another chip away at the ultimate goal of the Tories - the death of the public sector. 

You have often said we should be locked down - but that doesn't fix the problem it just moves it. Its like flooding, you can build defenses, it doesn't stop the flood happening it just moves where it's happening. Lockdown doesn't fix the problem, it moves it from the NHS to the economy the government (and all their advisors) have yet to find the balancing point.

So just to clarify, I didn’t say we should keep people locked down. Thanks for clarifying that.

Yes I know lockdown doesn’t solve the problem but you’ve kind of proved my point right there that we need lockdowns because the government have failed to get all the other necessary measures in place. If they had have created an effective test and trace system amongst other things then lockdown might not have been needed in November. So we can agree that if the government hadn’t failed in between lockdowns then we might not need all of these lockdowns. That’s why I’m saying we need lockdowns, I’m in good company saying that too. 

[fraybentos1]

5 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

None given because that wasn’t what you said. You said it can’t be spread by touch when it can, as confirmed by my link to the WHO yesterday. Have you read that article, because I have and it confirms it can be transmitted through touch we just need to wash hands more not clean surfaces:

They explained that while other viruses, such as rhinovirus and norovirus, are transmitted through contaminated surfaces—known as “fomites”—evidence suggests that such transmission is not common with the coronavirus. And any potential fomite transmission from the coronavirus can be prevented through regular handwashing or use of hand sanitizer, according to the authors.

There is no shame in admitting you're wrong! 😀

[Guest]

Today’s figures:

[Fuzzy Afro]

Jesus 55,000 cases and 964 deaths with a just-about-functioning NHS. January going to be ugly when it actually gets overwhelmed. 

[parsonjack]

19 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

they have been of late yes ... around 4pm ... Which no doubt means they will be late today 

55,892 new cases today ☹

[shoptildrop]

3 hours ago, philipsteak said:

My Facebook feed is full of NZ mates at packed NYE gigs and festivals. Looks amazing

I know a friend of mine is working at a bar at a music festival!! "sobs" 😞 

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

4 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

So just to clarify, I didn’t say we should keep people locked down. Thanks for clarifying that.

Yes I know lockdown doesn’t solve the problem but you’ve kind of proved my point right there that we need lockdowns because the government have failed to get all the other necessary measures in place. If they had have created an effective test and trace system amongst other things then lockdown might not have been needed in November. So we can agree that if the government hadn’t failed in between lockdowns then we might not need all of these lockdowns. That’s why I’m saying we need lockdowns, I’m in good company saying that too. 

Jesus Christ Man. 

I keep agreeing with you that the government have got things wrong. Your view is that they keep ignoring people who know better, and are slow to react etc...

You talk like they have some magic wand to suddenly make track and trace the perfect tool for the job. That wand doesn't exist. Neither does the crystal ball.

Is the benefit of locking down earlier greater than the cost of not doing it? Is the benefit of closing schools greater than not doing it? Etc... Etc... Etc... All of these are the sorts of questions that the government has to balance out nobody else has to ask that questions. The NHS can easily say we need to lock the country down now because it is not their job to worry about schools, employment etc... Etc... 

That is the big you keep missing when blaming the government (who are not blameless). You must acknowledge that the decisions they are making isn't as simple as having skinny fries or chunky chips? 

The country is effectively in lockdown anyway and that isn't exactly working either. Been in effective lockdown (T3) since October and the numbers are on the rise again - who do you blame for that one?

[Crazyfool01]

I need a drink 

[ace56blaa]

Why do we have to say this a million times. No one wants lockdown, no one think lockdown is the the only tool to stopping infections. 

No one thinks that business should just stay closed and staff just on furlough. 

No one is saying that. You are straw manning the argument by saying Ozanne or whoever is advocating for lockdown all the time. No one wants constant lockdown

No one is saying Eat out to Help out was the sole cause of rising corona infections. The problem is for schemes like that to work, the government needs to have a functioning test trace and isolate system. But they prioritized giving money to their moron friends to run that into the ground. The focused on coming up with a incredibly specific targeted scheme for one UK sector, whilst not giving money to people for isolating and ignoring, huge sections of the UK economy, deciding anything "unviable" doesn't deserve help. 

And then hospitality was forced to be unviable by the government incompetence, it could have and has been done safely in other countries, Opening in summer has hurt a lot of businesses, like the cinema, who have been on record saying that they would have been better off staying closed rather than constantly opening and shutting. Places would have had invest in making their premises covid safe only to shut a month or two later. 

At the end of the day, we have had horrible health results and horrible wealth results. So there is no argument to say Eat out to Help out worked at least not in the long run. It might have given a much needed boost at the time, but I wonder how many of those businesses are no in the same place they were financially. 

19 minutes ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

 

You see everything as a purely linear process. Its not a one to one relationship between action and consequence. 

Furlough doesn't protect businesses from going bust and the damage that does to economies in the long term it's a short term solution because the companies these people work for can't survive on life support forever.

All the while there is a Tory government the public sector will foot the bill because it's another chip away at the ultimate goal of the Tories - the death of the public sector. 

You have often said we should be locked down - but that doesn't fix the problem it just moves it. Its like flooding, you can build defenses, it doesn't stop the flood happening it just moves where it's happening. Lockdown doesn't fix the problem, it moves it from the NHS to the economy the government (and all their advisors) have yet to find the balancing point.

Lockdown is supposed to be used as time to sort out a plan for coming out of lockdown. 

That plan shouldn't be just open everything until we pass the threshold and have to shut again, this is is the problem. I can't believe people are still using the "lockdowns dont work" argument. Yeah they dont magically solve covid. but if your government literally disappears for weeks on end when we are locked down, barely doing anything. then of course they are only kicking the can down the road. 

This country has seemingly given up on any other strategy though

 

[philipsteak]

2 minutes ago, shoptildrop said:

I know a friend of mine is working at a bar at a music festival!! "sobs" 😞 

Even the photos just from house parties and BBQs and such look amazing. Hell, I'd even take a dinner party right now 

[Fuzzy Afro]

2 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

I need a drink 

Not too early to start....