This morning...

[alibear]

8 hours ago, CHRLY said:

Big up Charlton

...and that's where I work - I had no idea the SE London massive was so well represented on here!

[Cornelius_Fudge]

13 minutes ago, zahidf said:

He didnt walk back the KKK support. He said anyone can support him

According to statistics by several extremeist websites, the total members for the KKK Are between 5-8 thousand people. If you think that's enough to swing an election of 320 million, then you need to go back to the drawing board.

[russycarps]

2 minutes ago, alibear said:

...and that's where I work - I had no idea the SE London massive was so well represented on here!

it's the only part of london anyone can afford to live in!

 

[The Nal]

I see the sun rose again this morning. 

[russycarps]

Just now, The Nal said:

I see the sun rose again this morning. 

that's not the sun, it's a mushroom cloud

[Cornelius_Fudge]

Just now, russycarps said:

that's not the sun, it's a mushroom cloud

So that's how he gets such a wicked tan

[waterfalls212434]

Theres one reason to feel safe in the us right now..........that is if you happen to be a white, christian, conservative, straight male. 

Mind you Clinton is just as evil but for different reasons so the us people were fucked all the way really.

It does take a special kind of moron though to present views like the below though....mindblowing that the guy who is the new us president has views on topics like this that could rival david icke and infowars for lunacy (and yes it is factual, he claimed he never said that.....until people found the tweet was still up on his account-another right winger who doesnt know how the internet works it appears)

 

Edited November 10, 2016 by waterfalls212434

[The Nal]

1 minute ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Theres one reason to feel safe in the us right now..........that is if you happen to be a white, christian, conservative, straight male. 

Lets not get too dramatic. People are getting up and going to work. Nothing has changed. 100 million people didn't vote. Half of the US couldn't give a fuck and barely paid any attention to the election. 

It does take a special kind of moron though to present views like the below though....mindblowing that the guy who is the new us president has views on topics like this that could rival david icke and infowars for lunacy

Equally, anyone who believes that that is actually his opinion is showing the similar amounts of lunacy. 

[Keithy]

Some of the commentary over the last 36 hours, particularly from the left has been mad and just highlights why Trump won.

Calling 58m people stupid? That self righteous belief that I am intelligent and saw through Trump whilst those who voted for him are thick and stupid? That's what people are voting against. The left's patronising view that they alone are the shining light of good who can cut through all the bullshit of the right. You are the problem. 

Micheal Moore on twitter yesterday

He tricked millions of people to vote for him. Tricked? perhaps, just perhaps, you should consider the alternative to your view that the poor, dumb proletariat were tricked by a cunning, manipulative Trump and need to be saved. Perhaps huge swathes of the electorate feel the current political landscape isn't working for them, that they are forgotten about. They've not felt any recovery from 2008, that they long for a better future, they see their town with it's boarded up shops, the levels of inequality, the corruption that runs through central and local government and then look at the two candidates and think "this isn't working for me, voting for the same will produce the same. The alternative may be better, may be worse but I know I'll still be left behind if I vote for the same". Perhaps the 58m have sat and thought about it, rationalised Trumps faults against Clinton's faults, perhaps thought "I don't particularly like either candidate but I dislike Hilary more and Trump will moderate his views in power".

But no, 58m are thick, stupid sexists. 

I don't think the States or the UK is as polarised as people think. A 2 choice vote is always going to create the appearance of division. I think in both camps (Trump/Clinton, Remain/Leave), there are huge numbers of people who feel something isn't right with the current political system, the democracy isn't working for them, they are left behind, inequality is growing. The depth of that feeling varies across both camps but as with Remain/Leave, I think there are millions who swayed between the two camps. Lots eventually decided Leave/Trump was the answer, lots decided the status quo (remain/Clinton) was still the best answer and try and change it within.

Perhaps I am wrong. But I consider myself a fairly intelligent person and I was on the fence for remain/leave. I looked at the EU and thought how disgusting it was that some of the richest nations on earth have allowed a shanty town to develop in a modern, rich western European country. That is a huge systematic failure of politics, of the EU. But equally I thought that a problem that big could only be fixed by the collective power of the EU states. Equally I looked at how demographics of towns and smaller cities have changed dramatically in the last 15 year, how people have begun to feel isolated in their own towns. The constant parroting that immigration is good for you and the economy. But tell that to the people who have lost their jobs through austerity, haven't directly felt any economic benefit from immigration, who have seen the demographics of their town change and don't like it. You can't just insist to people that immigration is good for you. They need to experience it themselves. Similarly you cannot just insist the economy has recovered, people need to experience it themselves.

And when they don't experience it, an alternative is often the only answer they see.
 

Edited November 10, 2016 by Keithy

[eFestivals]

nice post Keith.

This is just as much a failure of 'the left' as it is a victory for 'the right'.

[marcoolio]

13 hours ago, arcade fireman said:

But the idea that someone isn't a feminist just because they stick with their partner who's cheated is just nonsense. I wouldn't like to say if Hillary is actually a feminist or not, but just that absolutely doesn't disqualify her from being one. What do we call men who stick with lying cheating partners? 

As the alt-right will tell you, they're called cucks.

[Keithy]

And as I'm on a mid morning grumble 

One of my biggest frustrations over the last few years is how easily and cheaply the words 'racist' and 'sexist' have been thrown around. Hugely powerful, emotive words, cheapened by their constant use. 

I'm still not convinced the immigration debate is solely about race. Yes, the colour of people's skin is an issue for some (and the left has the same issue, as it does with antisemitism) but for millions I suspect it's more about the sudden change in demographics rather than the actual race of the demographic.

As an example; Torbay, where I live. Traditional seaside town, mainly elderly population. In the late 80's, early 90's the demographic of the town changed dramatically with a huge rise in the number of north westerners coming down to live on benefits. Because when Thatcher has wrecked your city, unemployment and crime is high, why live on the dole in Manchester or Liverpool when you can live on the dole at the seaside? My family moved in '84 for similar reasons. We used to holiday in Torbay, my dad lost his job, we moved for a fresh start in somewhere nice. Is that any different to a Polish father looking for a better future for his family?

The 'dole migration' changed Torbay substantially demographically and some people didn't like it. Their quiet, traditional seaside town had changed. Government changed the law so that dole migration was reduced by not obliging councils to provide housing benefit if you have no link to the local town. But to this day, as a legacy of that late 80's movement of unemployed people, there is still an area of Torbay that is a predominately poor, unemployed housing estate. That is the crux of the immigration problem for me. Be they northerners, French, Polish or Syrian, it's the dramatic demographic change. It might be insular thinking, Xenophobia even.....but for a lot of people it's not racial and calling them racists only feeds into their belief that they are being forgotten about. Yes, Trump is sexist but calling all the people that voted for him also sexist, calling them all deplorables? Ok there's an element of 'the company that you keep' but 58m are not sexist or racist. They've probably voted for him in spite of his views as they've made a judgement that overall his pluses outweigh the minuses.

One final thing. Both Leave and Trump had perfect, brilliant slogans. 'Take Back Control', 'Make America Great Again'. Simple, effective and allowed people to interpret it as they saw, so they chimed with millions. 

Yes, we have lost sovereignty to the EU, we do need to take back control.
Yes, we have lost control of our borders, we do need to take back control.
Yes, we have lost control of our future, I am being left behind by the establishment, we need to take back control.
Yes, we used to be a proud car making city, we need to make America great again
Yes, we used to be the worlds policeman, know we're afraid to intervene. We need to make America great again.
Yes, we used to be a rich nation, where you could achieve anything you wanted. But I'm trapped in poverty with no future. We need to make america great again.

The success of Leave and Trump is the absolute failure of the political system to represent all. Even something simple as voting. My labour vote is completely and utterly pointless in Torbay, a safe Tory/Lib Dem seat. I have absolutely no input into national or local politics. Whether I vote labour or not makes absolutely no difference at all. Labour have no interest in my vote. I am a labour voter who has had to vote lib dem for 3 decades to have any impact. I cannot vote for my party but vote for the least worst option. Fortunately I am middle class so the impact on my life is minimised. But I can see that being poor and a labour voter in Torbay would leave me hugely disillusioned with the whole political system and the once in a lifetime opportunity when my vote counts, such as an EU Ref, then I'm going to vote against the established political order. 

[shuttlep]

17 hours ago, eastynh said:

Iike I said previously, I am not going to get embroiled too much on this. All I can say is that it is entirely different in Newton Heath. 

People voted for Brexit due to a multitude of reasons, it was not a single issue. @Quark is correct when he says there were a number of far right, bigoted, nationalistic and racist idiots who voted to leave. Yet most were hard working people with genuine concerns, who felt they were being ignored. This was their first real opportunity to have their say and bloody the noses of those who had ignored them for so long.

The brexit result does not make me sad. We are all in the shit together now and will have to work together to make it better. What makes me sad is the fact that millions of people felt so disenfranchised that we actually reached that point.

Brexit does worry me , as we have quite a few laws now started by Europe like maternity pay and sick pay, and so on that are good for workers. If we hadn't have been in Europe I doubt we would have got these. Now I am not saying they will take  them away. I doubt very much that a Conservative Government will look after the little guy and bring in more of the laws like above. I believe that Corbyn would. He brings his own set of problems with him. 

[shuttlep]

1 hour ago, Keithy said:

Some of the commentary over the last 36 hours, particularly from the left has been mad and just highlights why Trump won.

Calling 58m people stupid? That self righteous belief that I am intelligent and saw through Trump whilst those who voted for him are thick and stupid? That's what people are voting against. The left's patronising view that they alone are the shining light of good who can cut through all the bullshit of the right. You are the problem. 

Micheal Moore on twitter yesterday

He tricked millions of people to vote for him. Tricked? perhaps, just perhaps, you should consider the alternative to your view that the poor, dumb proletariat were tricked by a cunning, manipulative Trump and need to be saved. Perhaps huge swathes of the electorate feel the current political landscape isn't working for them, that they are forgotten about. They've not felt any recovery from 2008, that they long for a better future, they see their town with it's boarded up shops, the levels of inequality, the corruption that runs through central and local government and then look at the two candidates and think "this isn't working for me, voting for the same will produce the same. The alternative may be better, may be worse but I know I'll still be left behind if I vote for the same". Perhaps the 58m have sat and thought about it, rationalised Trumps faults against Clinton's faults, perhaps thought "I don't particularly like either candidate but I dislike Hilary more and Trump will moderate his views in power".

But no, 58m are thick, stupid sexists. 

I don't think the States or the UK is as polarised as people think. A 2 choice vote is always going to create the appearance of division. I think in both camps (Trump/Clinton, Remain/Leave), there are huge numbers of people who feel something isn't right with the current political system, the democracy isn't working for them, they are left behind, inequality is growing. The depth of that feeling varies across both camps but as with Remain/Leave, I think there are millions who swayed between the two camps. Lots eventually decided Leave/Trump was the answer, lots decided the status quo (remain/Clinton) was still the best answer and try and change it within.

Perhaps I am wrong. But I consider myself a fairly intelligent person and I was on the fence for remain/leave. I looked at the EU and thought how disgusting it was that some of the richest nations on earth have allowed a shanty town to develop in a modern, rich western European country. That is a huge systematic failure of politics, of the EU. But equally I thought that a problem that big could only be fixed by the collective power of the EU states. Equally I looked at how demographics of towns and smaller cities have changed dramatically in the last 15 year, how people have begun to feel isolated in their own towns. The constant parroting that immigration is good for you and the economy. But tell that to the people who have lost their jobs through austerity, haven't directly felt any economic benefit from immigration, who have seen the demographics of their town change and don't like it. You can't just insist to people that immigration is good for you. They need to experience it themselves. Similarly you cannot just insist the economy has recovered, people need to experience it themselves.

And when they don't experience it, an alternative is often the only answer they see.
 

he only tricked 50 odd million people in to forgetting he is a billionaire who for many years has been part of the establishment. maybe not actually in power but running around in the same circles and working with the people in power. 

he made everyone forget this and think he is just a normal guy. I get why people voted for him they took him seriously but not literally, the liberals took him literally , but not seriously. 

[Hugh Jass]

12 hours ago, russycarps said:

Well I doubt you poshos have to wait for a doctor's app. I expect they come to you!

I am no posho, live in a rented flat  on the other side of the A2, just by the Sun in the Sands. And yes, it takes ages to get a Doctor's appointment.

[Homer]

2 hours ago, alibear said:

...and that's where I work - I had no idea the SE London massive was so well represented on here!

Sydenham/Forest Hill!

[Keithy]

11 minutes ago, shuttlep said:

Brexit does worry me , as we have quite a few laws now started by Europe like maternity pay and sick pay, and so on that are good for workers. If we hadn't have been in Europe I doubt we would have got these. Now I am not saying they will take  them away. I doubt very much that a Conservative Government will look after the little guy and bring in more of the laws like above. I believe that Corbyn would. He brings his own set of problems with him. 

They may scrap all those laws but another government can reintroduce them if elected. The minimum wage was introduced by an elected Labour government, not the EU.

[Keithy]

22 minutes ago, shuttlep said:

he only tricked 50 odd million people in to forgetting he is a billionaire who for many years has been part of the establishment. maybe not actually in power but running around in the same circles and working with the people in power. 

he made everyone forget this and think he is just a normal guy. I get why people voted for him they took him seriously but not literally, the liberals took him literally , but not seriously. 

He didn't trick anyone. Intelligent, well educated people voted for him. I'm not sure how people forgot he was a billionaire; that was one of his main arguments - I am a very successful business man.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Keithy

[CHRLY]

2 hours ago, alibear said:

...and that's where I work - I had no idea the SE London massive was so well represented on here!

I've only just moved in here but it's nice enough. Very easy to access the centre anyway. 

[russycarps]

1 hour ago, Keithy said:

Some of the commentary over the last 36 hours, particularly from the left has been mad and just highlights why Trump won.

Calling 58m people stupid? That self righteous belief that I am intelligent and saw through Trump whilst those who voted for him are thick and stupid? That's what people are voting against. The left's patronising view that they alone are the shining light of good who can cut through all the bullshit of the right. You are the problem. 

Micheal Moore on twitter yesterday

He tricked millions of people to vote for him. Tricked? perhaps, just perhaps, you should consider the alternative to your view that the poor, dumb proletariat were tricked by a cunning, manipulative Trump and need to be saved. Perhaps huge swathes of the electorate feel the current political landscape isn't working for them, that they are forgotten about. They've not felt any recovery from 2008, that they long for a better future, they see their town with it's boarded up shops, the levels of inequality, the corruption that runs through central and local government and then look at the two candidates and think "this isn't working for me, voting for the same will produce the same. The alternative may be better, may be worse but I know I'll still be left behind if I vote for the same". Perhaps the 58m have sat and thought about it, rationalised Trumps faults against Clinton's faults, perhaps thought "I don't particularly like either candidate but I dislike Hilary more and Trump will moderate his views in power".

But no, 58m are thick, stupid sexists. 

I don't think the States or the UK is as polarised as people think. A 2 choice vote is always going to create the appearance of division. I think in both camps (Trump/Clinton, Remain/Leave), there are huge numbers of people who feel something isn't right with the current political system, the democracy isn't working for them, they are left behind, inequality is growing. The depth of that feeling varies across both camps but as with Remain/Leave, I think there are millions who swayed between the two camps. Lots eventually decided Leave/Trump was the answer, lots decided the status quo (remain/Clinton) was still the best answer and try and change it within.

Perhaps I am wrong. But I consider myself a fairly intelligent person and I was on the fence for remain/leave. I looked at the EU and thought how disgusting it was that some of the richest nations on earth have allowed a shanty town to develop in a modern, rich western European country. That is a huge systematic failure of politics, of the EU. But equally I thought that a problem that big could only be fixed by the collective power of the EU states. Equally I looked at how demographics of towns and smaller cities have changed dramatically in the last 15 year, how people have begun to feel isolated in their own towns. The constant parroting that immigration is good for you and the economy. But tell that to the people who have lost their jobs through austerity, haven't directly felt any economic benefit from immigration, who have seen the demographics of their town change and don't like it. You can't just insist to people that immigration is good for you. They need to experience it themselves. Similarly you cannot just insist the economy has recovered, people need to experience it themselves.

And when they don't experience it, an alternative is often the only answer they see.
 

Yep. And perhaps some people just dont give a shit about gay rights, trans rights, black rights etc. Many people have more important things to worry about.

It isnt racist or homophobic to be apathetic.

 

[Homer]

I've been f@cked off about Brexit/Trump since, well, I left Glasto I guess and caught up with the former on my phone on the way home. But now something comparable has happened again in the States. I have now accepted that this is democracy and this is clearly what the people want, under the rules they were given, and have voted in. I'm going to try and have as little to do with it as possible. But this is democracy and how the world is now.

[The Nal]

17 minutes ago, shuttlep said:

he only tricked 50 odd million people in to forgetting he is a billionaire

Odd tactics from him so. First thing he said in the 2nd debate:

"I'm Donald Trump, I wrote 'The Art of the Deal.' I say not in a braggadocious way: I've made billions of billions of dollars making deals all over the world"

 

[Keithy]

9 minutes ago, russycarps said:

Yep. And perhaps some people just dont give a shit about gay rights, trans rights, black rights etc. Many people have more important things to worry about.

It isnt racist or homophobic to be apathetic.

 

I think there's a lot of truth in that. People don't give a shit about quite a lot of stuff.

[Spindles]

3 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Also? What's wrong with walls? Glastonbury has a huge one and it helps protect the festival and keep us all safe from ticket dodgers and thieves

Except it doesn't.  In fact it provides the illusion of this merely to satisfy the demands of a group of people's fear of a rampant lack of control allowing an influx of undesirables.

We still get gatecrashers, we still get thieves.  The fence exists as a result of the (probably untrue) hysteria about the (exaggerated) numbers who got in during the 2000 festival.  It is a deterrent, certainly.

[russycarps]

11 minutes ago, The Nal said:

Odd tactics from him so. First thing he said in the 2nd debate:

"I'm Donald Trump, I wrote 'The Art of the Deal.' I say not in a braggadocious way: I've made billions of billions of dollars making deals all over the world"

 

Americans love a billionaire. They aspire to be billionaires. That is the american dream! 

People in this country think because they speak the same language and look the same as us, they are the same as us. It's madness. Their culture is utterly different. See also: brits arguing with americans about gun ownership.