This morning...

[Homer]

People keep saying ' the left has failed', but I don't understand what the solution is. From my smug, vaguely middle class viewpoint, the obvious solution for most of these disenfranchised protest voters at the bottom of the barrel would be to go back to having some form of actual socialist party that would represent them. However, we had that for two-odd decades, until Blair came along and moved to the centre and finally made the Labour party electable. And that's obviously even less likely to fly in the States.

As crazy as it sounds, what 'working' people seem to want is for some extreme right winger to come along, give tax cuts to the rich while decimating public services - and pointing the finger at immigrants. 

We can all sit here pointing out how stupid that is - but this is derided as being the patronising whinging of the liberals. This appears to be the crux of the whole problem to me. 

Maybe we should just stand back and applaud the right wing extremists for managing to make the immigrants and the liberals the bad guys?

Edited November 10, 2016 by Homer

[Cornelius_Fudge]

11 minutes ago, Spindles said:

Except it doesn't.  In fact it provides the illusion of this merely to satisfy the demands of a group of people's fear of a rampant lack of control allowing an influx of undesirables.

We still get gatecrashers, we still get thieves.  The fence exists as a result of the (probably untrue) hysteria about the (exaggerated) numbers who got in during the 2000 festival.  It is a deterrent, certainly.

The year before the wall went up, 30,000 extra people went to the festival, without tickets. The years after, crime dropped, accidents of vandalism dropped, overcrowding/gatecrashers dropped. They all dropped.

As a deterrent it also works to keep people away because they know they can't get in. So yes, you're right, it works perfectly well

[The Nal]

4 minutes ago, Homer said:

People keep saying ' the left has failed', but I don't understand what the solution is.

The left has failed because its become self righteous, condescending and sanctimonious. And as exclusive as the right is perceived to be. More so now. Its like a pathetic moral high horse invite only club. 

I won't mention the complete lack of understanding of how politics actually works, short memories, living off bullshit soundbites and the inability and/or unwillingness to face reality. 

From an American point of view (and UK I suppose) anyone identifying themselves as vaguely Republican, Conservative, Tory etc is seen as a monster. Theres a lot of "Hes a Tory, we don't want him playing the festival" on here for example. Despite the fact that the last "great" left leader started a fucking war.

Same in the US. McCain and Romney we portrayed as the anti-Christs by the left. They weren't. 

But somehow now theres surprise that people right of centre or centre were pushed all the way right. In a two party system. After years of basically being laughed at as clowns and shamed publicly for being "one of them". 

[Alex DeLarge]

Imagine being privileged enough to not care about what Trump will do to homosexuals, abortion rights and minorities because he's 'good for business' and then question why people dislike how you voted. You're allowed to be criticised for the way you voted, especially because so many people will loose their rights and Trump is bragging about committing war crimes.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Alex DeLarge

[russycarps]

1 minute ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Imagine having being privileged enough to not care about what Trump will do to homosexuals, abortion rights and minorities because he's 'good for business'.

imagine being poor enough not to care about what Trump will do to homosexuals, abortion rights and minorities because you are desperate to bring your family out of poverty

 

[The Nal]

2 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Imagine having being privileged enough to not care about what Trump will do to homosexuals, abortion rights and minorities because he's 'good for business'.

Or imagine being so fucking broke that you only have time to be concerned about where you and your children are going to sleep on a cold November night or how you're going to feed your baby.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

12 minutes ago, Homer said:

People keep saying ' the left has failed', but I don't understand what the solution is. From my smug, vaguely middle class viewpoint, the obvious solution for most of these disenfranchised protest voters at the bottom of the barrel would be to go back to having some form of actual socialist party that would represent them. However, we had that for two-odd decades, until Blair came along and moved to the centre and finally made the Labour party electable. And that's obviously even less likely to fly in the States.

As crazy as it sounds, what 'working' people seem to want is for some extreme right winger to come along, give tax cuts to the rich while decimating public services - and pointing the finger at immigrants. 

We can all sit here pointing out how stupid that is - but this is derided as being the patronising whinging of the liberals. This appears to be the crux of the whole problem to me. 

Maybe we should just stand back and applaud the right wing extremists for managing to make the immigrants and the liberals the bad guys?

But it's really got nothing to do with right wing extremists. The KKK didn't win this election for Trump. Average working class people did. 12% of blacks voted for Trump. They're not right wing extremists. 30% of latinos voted for Trump. Again not extremists. There are very few extremists in the Trump camp. 8000 members of the KKK is not a large number by any means and is dwarfed by the other demographics.

Trumps message spoke clearly to the working class, because they were the most under threat from illegal immigration - it's very difficult to find a job when you're competing against 30 migrants who will work for a lot less - and then after they complain, quite legitimately that they don't like it, the Left stops listening, brandishes them all racists and yes, patronises them, by not listening to their real issues, despite how inarticulately they might explain themselves.

If the Left is so smart, why couldn't they convince these 'stupid', extreme Right racists to not support Clinton? The election wasn't about gender or race.

[Alex DeLarge]

1 minute ago, russycarps said:

imagine being poor enough not to care about what Trump will do to homosexuals, abortion rights and minorities because you are desperate to bring your family out of poverty

I don't have to imagine that Russy. Me and my mom lived in a hostel while I was a baby and she never said 'you know what? War crimes are a bit of alright.'

Edited November 10, 2016 by Alex DeLarge

[Cornelius_Fudge]

2 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

I don't have to imagine that Russy.

Maybe you could provide some evidence that Trump is going to exterminate homosexuals and women who want abortions and minorities?
What is his plan then for these people exactly?

[Quark]

He's not everyone's cup of tea by any stretch, but there's an interesting book by Owen Jones called "The Establishment And How They Get Away With It".

One of the key points he makes is that the accepted / perceived notion of right, centre and left has shifted incrementally to the right over the last 40 years.  The result is that policies that would have been considered moderate or centre left are now thought to be rabidly Communist.  An example has been how many of Corbyn's policies (sorry Neil  ) are actually supported by voters in a blind test, but once they're known to be Corbyn policies the support vanishes because he's seen as a hardline socialist.

In that context the Blair era has done significant damage in the UK to any left-leaning politics.  A lot of Blair's policies were pretty much centre-right, but because it was done under the banner of Labour the perception is that it was a left wing government.

[Alex DeLarge]

Just now, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Maybe you could provide some evidence that Trump is going to exterminate homosexuals and women who want abortions and minorities?
What is his plan then for these people exactly?

I never said he would exteriminate anyone, but he has brought up 'punishment for abortions'Punishment for abortions' and elected a Vice President who believes in electroshock therapy which will be funded by taking away AIDS funding.

[Homer]

4 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

But it's really got nothing to do with right wing extremists. The KKK didn't win this election for Trump. Average working class people did. 12% of blacks voted for Trump. They're not right wing extremists. 30% of latinos voted for Trump. Again not extremists. There are very few extremists in the Trump camp. 8000 members of the KKK is not a large number by any means and is dwarfed by the other demographics.

Trumps message spoke clearly to the working class, because they were the most under threat from illegal immigration - it's very difficult to find a job when you're competing against 30 migrants who will work for a lot less - and then after they complain, quite legitimately that they don't like it, the Left stops listening, brandishes them all racists and yes, patronises them, by not listening to their real issues, despite how inarticulately they might explain themselves.

If the Left is so smart, why couldn't they convince these 'stupid', extreme Right racists to not support Clinton? The election wasn't about gender or race.

 

Sorry, to be clear, by 'right wing extremists', I was referring to the opportunist likes of Trump and Farage - not the people who vote for them.

Basically, why do a load of working class people vote for these right wing leaders who actually don't give a f@ck about the 'workers'?

[russycarps]

8 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

I don't have to imagine that Russy. Me and my mom lived in a hostel while I was a baby and she never said 'you know what? War crimes are a bit of alright.'

is not caring about gay rights a war crime now?

 

 

[Alex DeLarge]

Just now, russycarps said:

is not caring about gay rights a war crime now?

No, but calling for the execution of terrorists children is and bringing back water boarding is.

[Homer]

8 minutes ago, Quark said:

An example has been how many of Corbyn's policies (sorry Neil  ) are actually supported by voters in a blind test, but once they're known to be Corbyn policies the support vanishes because he's seen as a hardline socialist.

 

 

But this is the problem: WHY HAVE SOME 'WORKING CLASS' PEOPLE GOT A PROBLEM WITH SOCIALISM BUT NOT WITH BEING SCREWED BY THE LIKES OF FARAGE?!

[russycarps]

4 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

No, but calling for the execution of terrorists children is and bringing back water boarding is.

who is calling for the execution of terrorists children??

 

[The Nal]

8 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

I never said he would exteriminate anyone, but he has brought up 'punishment for abortions'Punishment for abortions' and elected a Vice President who believes in electroshock therapy which will be funded by taking away AIDS funding.

He said loads of mad shit. Was obviously behind with the religious nutters at the time so catered his opinions for them for votes. Same reason he choose Pence as a running mate. And it worked.

Same reason Democrats choose their VPs. Biden was chosen as Obamas running mate because he was strong on foreign policy, Obama was perceived as weak. Gore was chosen by Clinton partly because he was a steady hand to balance with the perception that Clinton was charismatic and possibly rash. The Kennedys fucking hated Lyndon Johnson but chose him to help with the southern conservative democrat vote and so on. 

[Alex DeLarge]

1 minute ago, russycarps said:

who is calling for the execution of terrorists children??

 

Donald Trump.

[russycarps]

3 minutes ago, Homer said:

 

But this is the problem: WHY HAVE SOME 'WORKING CLASS' PEOPLE GOT A PROBLEM WITH SOCIALISM BUT NOT WITH BEING SCREWED BY THE LIKES OF FARAGE?!

Some people are selfish and dont want to help out other people. They just care for themselves and their family. Lots of people would happily take a tax-cut and see disability benefits cut if they are able bodied for example.

If someone is promising them a way out of poverty at the expense of other people they'll take it without hesitation.

 

 

[Quark]

9 minutes ago, Homer said:

 

But this is the problem: WHY HAVE SOME 'WORKING CLASS' PEOPLE GOT A PROBLEM WITH SOCIALISM BUT NOT WITH BEING SCREWED BY THE LIKES OF FARAGE?!

How long have you got?  The left in this country, and possibly the states, has gradually been weakened to a fringe element by decades of shifting to the right and internal fighting. Crap at rhetoric and self-promotion - compare Farage, whatever you think of him, with Corbyn.  No firebrands.

And my crackpot theory that stands up to no scrutiny is that the social impact of Thatcher during the 80s means that everyone is striving for themselves, for number one.  Greed is good. That means that the more left wing approach, however much it would benefit people, is dismissed because it's seen as helping others when actually it should all be for me me me.

The ideas of the best average outcome for everyone, bringing those at the bottom up but maybe at the cost of limiting those climbing towards the top, has been kicked to the kerb.

EDIT: so basically what @russycarps said, but mine had more waffle

Edited November 10, 2016 by Quark

[The Nal]

Le Pen running in France next April.

[Homer]

3 minutes ago, Quark said:

EDIT: so basically what @russycarps said, but mine had more waffle

I can go one further: 'most people are c@nts'!

 

Okay, I'm convinced - I'm going to start voting Tory.

[russycarps]

 

1 minute ago, The Nal said:

Le Pen running in France next April.

You've got to hand it to ISIS, first brexit, then trump and le pen taking france out the eu would be the cherry on the top.

 

[Quark]

Just now, Homer said:

Okay, I'm convinced - I'm going to start voting Tory.

Don't be that guy

[waterfalls212434]

3 hours ago, The Nal said:

Lets not get too dramatic. People are getting up and going to work. Nothing has changed. 100 million people didn't vote. Half of the US couldn't give a fuck and barely paid any attention to the election. 

Equally, anyone who believes that that is actually his opinion is showing the similar amounts of lunacy. 

if its not his opinion why post it on his twitter feed? (as I stated there were attempts to debunk it but no he actually did post this)   more to the point why the fuck are you defending the c**t? as for `nothing has changed` yes thats obvious, because nothing changes overnight but that entire country has just normalised and made acceptable the kind of behavior trump displays, racism, intolerance, sexual abuse....because hey if the president can get away with it then.......! so I dont see a very nice future for them given that do you? I mean look at what happened here with the brexit vote giving courage and making more bold those who like to abuse immigrants particualy those from the eu resulting in more abuse, more attacks and a hell of a lot of negativity directed towards innocent people....now imagine that on steroids!

I wonder how life feels for one of the minority groups trumps spent a lot of time abusing and attacking before he was elected? put yourself in their situation?, they have good reason to be worried for the future!