This morning...

[EasyUserName]

2 hours ago, shuttlep said:

I hear this being said over and over again, not getting places in schools, not getting a place in the Doctors. I can ring my doctor in the morning and be seen in the afternoon. I registered for a dentist simple. I got my boy in the closest school no problem. 

 

I don't know if it's an area thing? I live in Burnley and before that in South Manchester and never had any of these issues. 

4 Weeks for a doctors here.  If you're lucky. 

 

Not down to immigration though, as I don't think the area is what you'd call a classical immigration hot-spot. 

[bamber]

1 minute ago, eastynh said:

Maybe a groper was better alternative than a war monger.

Presented as a binary you can argue that. But it is not and never will be.binary In our evaluation of others we must look to the wholesome content of their character, and little else.

[EasyUserName]

16 minutes ago, bamber said:

Let me reiterate this.

The majority of the American Electorate just voted in a President who bragged about groping women. Read that back again. Then try and argue with me that vast swathes of humanity are not thick as shit.

I suspect some knew that they were voting for someone who thought that, but then thought back to threads like this where they'd been called thick by one of the "educated elite" and thought "fuck it, I'll vote to smash the lot down".

 

[Alex DeLarge]

22 minutes ago, eastynh said:

Maybe a groper was better alternative than a war monger.

Don't be ridiculous, Trump is just as warmongering as Clinton, if not more so. There are going to be soldiers on the ground to fight ISIS according to him.

[bamber]

10 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

 

Wow, that's quite condescending and it's quite difficult to defend that you're not looking down on people when you keep calling everyone thick and dumb just because they have a different opinion to you.

Also, mobs can be of any political motivation, they're not exclusive to the right.

 

What exactly do you mean they reduced information offered down to binary xenophobic options? What examples of this do you have? If you mean they reduced questions like "Do we want more or less immigration?", "Do we want more or less money for the NHS?", "Do we want more or less control of our laws?", then yes of course, everyone reduced them in to binary questions, because at the end of the day, that is exactly what the referendum was about - a binary yes or no.

You can't label all of the leavers xenophobic and tarnish them with the same brush without understanding 'why' they voted the way they did, because if you do, you just further polarize the problem between the right and the left and the more extreme everyone becomes.

If you disagree with someone, placing a label of sexist, racist, xenophobic, dumb, stupid, then that doesn't qualify as a factual argument. It's just your opinion and just prolongs the agony of the situation we find ourselves in.
 

I'm not calling people think and dumb because I have a different opinion to them. I calling them thick and dumb because they made demonstrably illogical choices like voting for Farage and Trump. Both of them completely lack compassion, to miss. ignore or tolerate that is stupidity manifest. Actions devoid of compassion are inhuman.

[russycarps]

2 hours ago, shuttlep said:

I hear this being said over and over again, not getting places in schools, not getting a place in the Doctors. I can ring my doctor in the morning and be seen in the afternoon. I registered for a dentist simple. I got my boy in the closest school no problem. 

 

I don't know if it's an area thing? I live in Burnley and before that in South Manchester and never had any of these issues. 

Usually a month before you get a doctor's appointment here in Lewisham.  Other option is to queue at the door from 7am and hope to get one of the emergency daily appointments 

[arcade fireman]

Massively disagreed with Brexit, but certainly wouldn't call most Brexit voters bigoted or stupid - even though I would say most bigots voted for Brexit.

However I really don't care - the vast majority of those who voted for Trump were thick, bigoted or both. There's absolutely no rational argument you can give for Donald Trump being president. You can list plenty of rational reasons why America needed a change, but absolutely none of those end with Trump as any kind of a logical answer. 

[EasyUserName]

4 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

Massively disagreed with Brexit, but certainly wouldn't call most Brexit voters bigoted or stupid - even though I would say most bigots voted for Brexit.

However I really don't care - the vast majority of those who voted for Trump were thick, bigoted or both. There's absolutely no rational argument you can give for Donald Trump being president. You can list plenty of rational reasons why America needed a change, but absolutely none of those end with Trump as any kind of a logical answer. 

I don't know their system or politics, but wasn't it a case of "vote for the same as the last one" or "vote form someone who's a bit nuts and will smash / crash the system up", as opposed to the usual choices (being "vote for the same as the last one" or "vote for the opposite side of the coin (same) as the last one").

[Quark]

2 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Bloody hell - things got a bit fancy in here, didn't it?!

Proper cosmopolitan, me.

On the whole Brexit thing I don't think you can argue it down to stupidity at all. So I'd say I'm pretty intelligent, got an economics degree and all that (technical term) and try to read and take an interest in the world. And I didnt have a bloody clue. 

So much contradicting information, studies, forecasts and whatnot. You try to figure out, purely in numbers, what our net contribution or benefit was from the EU. Good luck with that, 'cos everyone came up with a different number.

And this is why, personally, I found the vote saddening; it was based as much on an attitude and frame of mind as it was hard facts.

But, we are where we are. So we make the best of it as we possibly can. And if it does end up as a the catalyst to address why people feel the way they do and some internal social ills, then that's a benefit.

[slash's hat]

By no means condone Trump getting in, but Hilary has her fair share of scandal and haters - what was their alternative vote? OK 3rd party - but in the long run that would have helped Trump.

[arcade fireman]

1 minute ago, EasyUserName said:

I don't know their system or politics, but wasn't it a case of "vote for the same as the last one" or "vote form someone who's a bit nuts and will smash / crash the system up", as opposed to the usual choices (being "vote for the same as the last one" or "vote for the opposite side of the coin (same) as the last one").

Yeah but Trump was more than a "bit nuts". He repeatedly bragged in the past about walking in on girls changing and grabbing women. He was openly racist. His plans stood up to absolutely no vaguely intellectual scrutiny - he made multiple claims that could easily be debunked. Hillary was constantly painted as the lying and corrupt one (which I'm sure she was guilty of to an extent) to a man who lied on record far more and likely didn't pay any income taxes for decades. I'm guessing you're not actually a Trump fan but still the differences were far greater than that. And I'm no Hillary fan.

You (not literally you) have to be stupid or just so bigoted that you don't care or support the outright racist and sexism to support that. Really it shouldn't come as that much of a surprise America voted this way. 

[bamber]

1 minute ago, EasyUserName said:

I don't know their system or politics, but wasn't it a case of "vote for the same as the last one" or "vote form someone who's a bit nuts and will smash / crash the system up", as opposed to the usual choices (being "vote for the same as the last one" or "vote for the opposite side of the coin (same) as the last one").

You can't reduce the political process to the flip of a coin. Despite some failings Barack Obama was not any sort of usual choice, but was by contrast a complex, compassionate, driven man. Trump and Farage are merely dumb populists. Their influence over the coming years will take decades to repeal. The Arc of history is long though and we will overcome this, our grandchildren will see better times, it it just such a shame that those of us alive now have to live through this.

[Quark]

1 minute ago, arcade fireman said:

You (not literally you) have to be stupid or just so bigoted that you don't care or support the outright racist and sexism to support that. Really it shouldn't come as that much of a surprise America voted this way. 

I'm wary of pinning it on those points alone. It's entirely possible that voters are disgusted by those points, but when weighed up against Clinton they still felt he was the better choice. 

Blaming votes like this on stupidity don't address root causes.

[arcade fireman]

3 minutes ago, Quark said:

I'm wary of pinning it on those points alone. It's entirely possible that voters are disgusted by those points, but when weighed up against Clinton they still felt he was the better choice. 

Blaming votes like this on stupidity don't address root causes.

It's not purely down to the stupidity of voters. There are many root causes which are unrelated to the this. But in this specific election, for this specific candidate I'm perfectly comfortable to also say the stupidity and bigotry of most Trump voters as a response to these root causes is a massive factor too. I wouldn't have said this about Brexit, and certainly wouldn't have said this about the 2015 election here either. 

[bamber]

4 minutes ago, Quark said:

I'm wary of pinning it on those points alone. It's entirely possible that voters are disgusted by those points, but when weighed up against Clinton they still felt he was the better choice. 

Blaming votes like this on stupidity don't address root causes.

Is it like you believe stupidity does not exist? It is the logical conclusion as to the root cause of these events. Occam's razor

[Quark]

13 minutes ago, bamber said:

Is it like you believe stupidity does not exist? It is the logical conclusion as to the root cause of these events. Occam's razor

You're doing a pretty good job of convincing me stupidity exists!

It's also a convenient excuse to use for the world going to ratshit.

[slash's hat]

21 minutes ago, bamber said:

Is it like you believe stupidity does not exist? It is the logical conclusion as to the root cause of these events. Occam's razor

So we don't let stupid people vote in future then? What criteria should we use? There are people who voted for Hillary for "stupid" reasons..ie. being female. If she was any sort of feminist she would have kicked her lying cheating husband to the kerb.

And I had to google that Occam's Razor - guess that saves me a trip to the poll booths in future

Edited November 9, 2016 by slash's hat

[Cornelius_Fudge]

43 minutes ago, bamber said:

I'm not calling people think and dumb because I have a different opinion to them. I calling them thick and dumb because they made demonstrably illogical choices like voting for Farage and Trump. Both of them completely lack compassion, to miss. ignore or tolerate that is stupidity manifest. Actions devoid of compassion are inhuman.

Illogical to you, but logic is not a scientific calculation like mathematics or physics. 

For me it is logical that Jesus didn't turn water into wine and the prophet Muhammad didn't fly to the moon on a winged horse, but try telling that to an orthodox Christian or Muslim. 

You can't base your argument on "I'm logical and if you don't agree, then you are a stupid idiot". 

Also, if these people are really as stupid and dumb as you say, then why were they not easier to convince? 

Surely it would be easy to convince an idiot that there's gold at the end of a rainbow. 

[Woffy]

Occam's razor does a pretty good job when applied to scientific theory and one's approach to it. 

It's pretty fucking shite when applied to complex socio-political economic situations. 

"Everything should be made as simple as possible...but not simpler"

 

[bamber]

7 minutes ago, slash's hat said:

So we don't let stupid people vote in future then? What criteria should we use? There are people who voted for Hillary for "stupid" reasons..ie. being female. If she was any sort of feminist she would have kicked her lying cheating husband to the kerb.

It's not about not letting stupid people vote, its about making sure that people are educated adequately. Has Trump even mentioned the education system once in the last two years of his campaign?

Edited November 9, 2016 by bamber

[arcade fireman]

8 minutes ago, slash's hat said:

So we don't let stupid people vote in future then? What criteria should we use? There are people who voted for Hillary for "stupid" reasons..ie. being female. If she was any sort of feminist she would have kicked her lying cheating husband to the kerb.

I don't necessarily disagree that some people voted for Hillary because she was a woman - and that was hardly an educated reason either. Though chances are a lot of the people that had those thoughts also had double reason to vote against Trump - and voting against Trump because of his attitude towards women is a legitimate reason to vote for the other candidate.

But the idea that someone isn't a feminist just because they stick with their partner who's cheated is just nonsense. I wouldn't like to say if Hillary is actually a feminist or not, but just that absolutely doesn't disqualify her from being one. What do we call men who stick with lying cheating partners? 

Edited November 9, 2016 by arcade fireman

[bamber]

3 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

logic is not a scientific calculation like mathematics or physics.

I'm sorry but it is exactly that.

[slash's hat]

Just now, bamber said:

It's not about not letting stupid vote, its about making sure that people are educated adequately. Has Trump even mentioned the education system once in the last two years of his campaign?

Mentioned it in all the mud slinging I don't know...is it in his policies? Yes I looked at both this morning to try and understand wtf America had done. Think everyone agrees on here he is the wrong choice..just disagree with labelling his supporters as all stupid. 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

5 minutes ago, bamber said:

I'm sorry but it is exactly that.

 

6 minutes ago, bamber said:

I'm sorry but it is exactly that.

Not in socially applied science

[Alex DeLarge]

4 minutes ago, slash's hat said:

Mentioned it in all the mud slinging I don't know...is it in his policies? Yes I looked at both this morning to try and understand wtf America had done. Think everyone agrees on here he is the wrong choice..just disagree with labelling his supporters as all stupid. 

I feel sorry for his supporters that they've been left behind by the establishment and now have a President who will pretend to care for them for his first year or so before leaving them until the election.

Although that doesn't excuse the fact they saw Trump's racism, mocking of a disability, war mongering rhetoric and sexism and still voted for him.