This morning...

[Quark]

47 minutes ago, eastynh said:

Mate this is a music and Glastonbury Forum. I appreciate the links between politics and the festival, but it is not something I wish to get embroiled with on here. I said a little and would rather leave it there now.

I don't agree with people voting for Brexit, but from my vantage point, I perfectly understand why people did. You are right, there are deep divisions running through the country and how we solve them, I have no idea. There are some deeply uncertain and scary times ahead for all us all I think. 

The words from Depeche Mode - Everything Counts seem very apt this afternoon.

Edit - Forum not thread.

Furry muff, we shall leave it there mon ami

[shuttlep]

1 hour ago, eastynh said:

 

People are fed up. It could be with the fact it takes 2 weeks to get a doctors appointment, no places for kids in schools, can't even get jobs on employment agencies because they are only recruiting eastern European countries, gyms being shut down, libraries closing. The list could go on and on. .

 

I hear this being said over and over again, not getting places in schools, not getting a place in the Doctors. I can ring my doctor in the morning and be seen in the afternoon. I registered for a dentist simple. I got my boy in the closest school no problem. 

 

I don't know if it's an area thing? I live in Burnley and before that in South Manchester and never had any of these issues. 

[alibear]

3 hours ago, StLewi said:

Are people that surprised with this result? Really? 

People are sick of career politicians. They're all (mostly) absolute slimeballs who lie their way to power and have no qualms about stabbing people in the back. People feel disenfranchised as, no matter who they vote for, nothing significant is going to change. Everyone welcomed Obama as the saviour of the USA... what has he actually managed to achieve? Obama Care? People still have to pay, it's not an NHS. Obama, the president of the USA, was completely anti-gun... what has he, the president, actually managed to do to improve the horrific gun-crime situation? Nothing.

Those who have voted for trump have done so to stick a massive middle finger up to the establishment and ridiculous world of American politics. Yes he's a douche-bag, but that's not the point here. It clearly proves that the current political system is rotten and people are sick of it. They want something different, and in Trump they'll get that.

Yes Trump appears to be a sexist, racist and homophobe, but I bet the majority of his voters aren't. 

I agree with most of what you are saying, but getting Obamacare (while not "free", per se) and the legalisation of same-sex marriage through Congress is an enormous achievement in a country like the USA. I don't think there's been a President before him that has given much of a shit about such things.

He tried to amend the gun laws, but unfortunately it seems a constitution from more than 300 years ago is a good enough reason to keep on allowing people to bear arms. 

[eastynh]

12 minutes ago, shuttlep said:

I hear this being said over and over again, not getting places in schools, not getting a place in the Doctors. I can ring my doctor in the morning and be seen in the afternoon. I registered for a dentist simple. I got my boy in the closest school no problem. 

 

I don't know if it's an area thing? I live in Burnley and before that in South Manchester and never had any of these issues. 

Iike I said previously, I am not going to get embroiled too much on this. All I can say is that it is entirely different in Newton Heath. 

People voted for Brexit due to a multitude of reasons, it was not a single issue. @Quark is correct when he says there were a number of far right, bigoted, nationalistic and racist idiots who voted to leave. Yet most were hard working people with genuine concerns, who felt they were being ignored. This was their first real opportunity to have their say and bloody the noses of those who had ignored them for so long.

The brexit result does not make me sad. We are all in the shit together now and will have to work together to make it better. What makes me sad is the fact that millions of people felt so disenfranchised that we actually reached that point.

Edited November 9, 2016 by eastynh

[JMDS]

Brexit was basically escaped by being in glasto! 

This was just weird.  I can't imagine what his first 100 days are going to be like.

[stuartbert two hats]

4 hours ago, russycarps said:

well quite. Obviously I didnt mean every single homeowner with a comfortable income. Just the vast majority. I dont blame them, how can you comprehend something you have never experienced? Of course there are the odd exceptions.

 

 

 

Oh people learn all right, that's why all the world leaders who witnessed WW2 first hand built the EU to prevent war in Europe. The problem is that they have children who were never there, so the cycle starts again with every generation.

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, eastynh said:

What makes me sad is the fact that millions of people felt so disenfranchised that we actually reached that point.

Yup - and that falls just as much on 'the left' (both 'blairites' and those who might regard themselves as more virtuous) as it does on 'the right'.

 

[marcoolio]

1 hour ago, Hugh Jass said:

Matt Bellamy voted for Brexit. The day before he took to the stage as headliner of Glastonbury 2016 he voted Leave.

Not that it's really all that relevant whether he did or not, but he's denied voting for Brexit on Twitter:

 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

38 minutes ago, Quark said:

Furry muff, we shall leave it there mon ami

Bloody hell - things got a bit fancy in here, didn't it?!

[stuartbert two hats]

7 minutes ago, marcoolio said:

Not that it's really all that relevant whether he did or not, but he's denied voting for Brexit on Twitter:

 

I hope he didn't vote to leave the EU on that basis, since that sounds more like something you might do within the EU than from the outside. I.e. you're more likely to be able to negotiate the right to make those deals as a member than to get free trade and movement as a non-member.

[Spindles]

41 minutes ago, shuttlep said:

I hear this being said over and over again, not getting places in schools, not getting a place in the Doctors. I can ring my doctor in the morning and be seen in the afternoon. I registered for a dentist simple. I got my boy in the closest school no problem. 

 

I don't know if it's an area thing? I live in Burnley and before that in South Manchester and never had any of these issues. 

Not uncommon here in the midlands.

[bamber]

40 minutes ago, eastynh said:

Iike I said previously, I am not going to get embroiled too much on this. All I can say is that it is entirely different in Newton Heath. 

People voted for Brexit due to a multitude of reasons, it was not a single issue. @Quark is correct when he says there were a number of far right, bigoted, nationalistic and racist idiots who voted to leave. Yet most were hard working people with genuine concerns, who felt they were being ignored. This was their first real opportunity to have their say and bloody the noses of those who had ignored them for so long.

The brexit result does not make me sad. We are all in the shit together now and will have to work together to make it better. What makes me sad is the fact that millions of people felt so disenfranchised that we actually reached that point.

Its all very well saying the people have spoken and that the people are better qualified to govern than the well educated metropolitan elite. The only problem with that view is that it completely erroneous. The reason why we have Schools, Colleges and Universities is so that the bright get to educate themselves to rule and govern, Britain and the USA are a laughing stock now. This whole phenomenon massively devalues  the whole notion of democracy. The Dictators and the Totalitarians  of this world rub their hands in glee tonight. People are so stupid. This will not end well.

[eastynh]

8 minutes ago, bamber said:

Its all very well saying the people have spoken and that the people are better qualified to govern than the well educated metropolitan elite. The only problem with that view is that it completely erroneous. The reason why we have Schools, Colleges and Universities is so that the bright get to educate themselves to rule and govern, Britain and the USA are a laughing stock now. This whole phenomenon massively devalues  the whole notion of democracy. The Dictators and the Totalitarians  of this world rub their hands in glee tonight. People are so stupid. This will not end well.

People are not stupid, they just don't have the same views as you. That does not make them stupid. It is people who have the same attitude as you that has caused us to reach this point.

Instead of trying to make their lives better and working with them to alay their fears, you label them stupid. 

[bamber]

The People via the Brexit referendum and US election have proved themselves to be stupid. If you want  more proof of that, you just need watch the way things unfold from now. Trump will enact massive tax cuts for the rich in January. I just hope that it happens quickly enough for some sort of counter revolution (yes, led by well educated experts)  to come along to save us. Right now we have mob rule, and that ends badly.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2016 by bamber

[Friendly Banter]

Portland, Oregon checking in.  Very sobering day here for one side of America. 

[dizzymoo]

4 minutes ago, eastynh said:

People are not stupid, they just don't have the same views as you. That does not make them stupid. It is people who have the same attitude as you that has caused us to reach this point.

Instead of trying to make their lives better and working with them to alay their fears, you label them stupid. 

The main problem seems to be in reducing complex issues to binary choices.  There was so much disinformation (most of it unchallenged by the BBC in particular) before the referendum,  people genuinely thought they were voting for £350 million to be diverted direct from the EU to the NHS.  Choice only works when people are fully informed.  Sadly, if bringing back capital punishment was put to the public now in a referendum, the majority would probably vote yes, despite numerous miscarriages of justice where people wrongly convicted would be receiving posthumous pardons rather than being released from prison.

[slash's hat]

Bit harsh to call them all stupid. The problem is the total apathy the people of this country (can't comment on america) have had for politics - for whatever reason - then all of a sudden are asked to make a decision....a decision which politicians of the same party, whichever your affiliation, were divided on. Thankfully my children are being introduced to politics through school and are forming their own opinions, which I hope will translate into them voting in the future.

[bamber]

1 minute ago, dizzymoo said:

The main problem seems to be in reducing complex issues to binary choices.  There was so much disinformation (most of it unchallenged by the BBC in particular) before the referendum,  people genuinely thought they were voting for £350 million to be diverted direct from the EU to the NHS.  Choice only works when people are fully informed.  Sadly, if bringing back capital punishment was put to the public now in a referendum, the majority would probably vote yes, despite numerous miscarriages of justice where people wrongly convicted would be receiving posthumous pardons rather than being released from prison.

That is not true, The people were not presented with binary choices, yet many of them reduced the wealth of information offered down to binary xenophobic  options, because they are thick.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

23 minutes ago, bamber said:

That is not true, The people were not presented with binary choices, yet many of them reduced the wealth of information offered down to binary xenophobic  options, because they are thick.

There's nothing more binary than a yes or no referendum

Edited November 9, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge

[eastynh]

12 minutes ago, bamber said:

That is not true, The people were not presented with binary choices, yet many of them reduced the wealth of information offered down to binary xenophobic  options, because they are thick.

What is worse? Thick people with nothing to lose voting democratically, or the intelligent amongst us failing to get the message across in a manner that the thick people could understand and comprehend?

Unfortunately the so called intelligent ones amongst us were only interested in themselves. Instead of listening and doing things to help the thicko's, the brain boxes just poured scorn on them

Not everyone is lucky enough to be intelligent like you Bamber. Just remember though when you are looking down on people from the top of your glass tower, that a glass tower can be broken from the bottom. 

Thats exactly what has happened. Those thicko's and undesireables have kicked out and broken the glass towers.

[bamber]

5 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

There's nothing more binary than a yes or no referendum

The Yes or no option embroiled in a million lies and obfuscations, Anyone arguing that the mob is not thick at this moment in history makes you all look a bit dumb yourselves.

[bamber]

4 minutes ago, eastynh said:

What is worse? Thick people with nothing to lose voting democratically, or the intelligent amongst us failing to get the message across in a manner that the thick people could understand and comprehend?

Unfortunately the so called intelligent ones amongst us were only interested in themselves. Instead of listening and doing things to help the thicko's, the brain boxes just poured scorn on them

Not everyone is lucky enough to be intelligent like you Bamber. Just remember though when you are looking down on people from the top of your glass tower, that a glass tower can be broken from the bottom. 

Thats exactly what has happened. Those thicko's and undesireables have kicked out and broken the glass towers.

I'm not looking down on anybody, mob mentality thinks that I am.

[bamber]

Let me reiterate this.

The majority of the American Electorate just voted in a President who bragged about groping women. Read that back again. Then try and argue with me that vast swathes of humanity are not thick as shit.

[eastynh]

1 minute ago, bamber said:

Let me reiterate this.

The majority of the American Electorate just voted in a President who bragged about groping women. Read that back again. Then try and argue with me that vast swathes of humanity are not thick as shit.

Maybe a groper was better alternative than a war monger.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

17 minutes ago, bamber said:

The Yes or no option embroiled in a million lies and obfuscations, Anyone arguing that the mob is not thick at this moment in history makes you all look a bit dumb yourselves.

 

15 minutes ago, bamber said:

I'm not looking down on anybody, mob mentality thinks that I am.

Wow, that's quite condescending and it's quite difficult to defend that you're not looking down on people when you keep calling everyone thick and dumb just because they have a different opinion to you.

Also, mobs can be of any political motivation, they're not exclusive to the right.

 

44 minutes ago, bamber said:

That is not true, The people were not presented with binary choices, yet many of them reduced the wealth of information offered down to binary xenophobic  options, because they are thick.

What exactly do you mean they reduced information offered down to binary xenophobic options? What examples of this do you have? If you mean they reduced questions like "Do we want more or less immigration?", "Do we want more or less money for the NHS?", "Do we want more or less control of our laws?", then yes of course, everyone reduced them in to binary questions, because at the end of the day, that is exactly what the referendum was about - a binary yes or no.

You can't label all of the leavers xenophobic and tarnish them with the same brush without understanding 'why' they voted the way they did, because if you do, you just further polarize the problem between the right and the left and the more extreme everyone becomes.

If you disagree with someone, placing a label of sexist, racist, xenophobic, dumb, stupid, then that doesn't qualify as a factual argument. It's just your opinion and just prolongs the agony of the situation we find ourselves in.
 

Edited November 9, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge