Mobile Tickets

[stuartbert two hats]

6 minutes ago, maelzoid said:

This is all easily solved.

The e-ticket is essentially a QR code which the holder can print at home or keep on an app.

At the gate, the staff scans the QR code with a smart phone (a similar setup as used by ticket inspectors on trains) which links it to a database and brings up the photo, in better definition than would be printed on the ticket. This database can be pre-loaded into the phones so that does not require them having perfect connectivity. They would have the photos for months, so this can all be done way in advance.

If they can ensure good connectivity then they can also tick off who has already entered and essentially bar that ticket from entering again, unless that person passes back out with another scan.

Yeah, I was thinking that the whole database would be no more than a gig or two and you could queue up all the changes going either way to cope with the network going down. Having said that, I believe most systems at the moment don't do this - just because it's straightforward to lay out the architecture, that doesn't mean it's all that simple or cheap to implement.

And is it really ok to waive* the check that the ticket has been used when the network is down? You can't reuse a paper ticket (without a passout) whether or not there is a stable network - it's been ripped. So allowing people in without that check would be a downgrade in security.

* Ok, it's not really waiving the check, it's not ensuring that the check is using the latest data. So 10 minutes of downtime would be fine, but what about 8 hours on the Wednesday? Huge scope for multiple use of tickets. Is there a cutoff where too much downtime is too much? What if there are some bad messages in the queues that cause endless retries?

There are answers for all these questions, but it's non-trivial. Once you get into it, there's a lot of scenarios to work through and very difficult to pilot. It has to work once Michael cuts the ribbon.

Here's a thought - two similar looking people converge on the gates on opposite ends of the site at the same time with some sort of wi-fi jamming tech.  They would probably both be able to get in.

[Leyrulion]

19 minutes ago, maelzoid said:

This is all easily solved.

The e-ticket is essentially a QR code which the holder can print at home or keep on an app.

At the gate, the staff scans the QR code with a smart phone (a similar setup as used by ticket inspectors on trains) which links it to a database and brings up the photo, in better definition than would be printed on the ticket. This database can be pre-loaded into the phones so that does not require them having perfect connectivity. They would have the photos for months, so this can all be done way in advance.

If they can ensure good connectivity then they can also tick off who has already entered and essentially bar that ticket from entering again, unless that person passes back out with another scan.

interesting. There'd be a cost to the scanners but they could share that with other fests/rent from a company providing it. 

Extra costs of that would be off set by the savings from sending 135,000 special delivery mails. That's probably the best part of 1/4 of a million in itself. 

 

[philipsteak]

44 minutes ago, incident said:

Agree with all of that, and just to add when you say "gates", it doesn't just mean the 6 main public gates. Depends on exactly how you define a gate but there'd need to be at least 19 separate sites.

And be operating perfectly 24 hours a day, which most festival gates don't do

[Jakeyboi135]

1 hour ago, Deaf Nobby Burton said:

I’m sure the system would work fine, however if it was based on say, a QR code it would inevitably lead to tons of people turning up with pictures of peoples e-tickets they had been sold, a lot like what happened at the Euro final in the summer. Someone unscrupulous who got access to an e-ticket could easily sell it on to gullible people 1000+ times. Obviously they wouldn’t get in but it could lead to more people being defrauded.

I think this is the biggest issue. Its OK to say glasto won't cut out all defrauding, but that doesn't mean it should be completely ignored. If someone is sold a paper ticket that never turns up, they stay at home. If QR codes are sold online multiple times you potentially have hundreds of people turning up thinking their getting in. 

[fatyeti24]

The Good Lord Eavis presents no greater peril than that of misplacing one's passout ticket and thus having to spend some time in a portacabin explaining that, honestly, you were just twatted last night and don't even know where your trousers are, let alone the contents of their pockets.

[Tuna]

1 hour ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Yeah, I was thinking that the whole database would be no more than a gig or two and you could queue up all the changes going either way to cope with the network going down. Having said that, I believe most systems at the moment don't do this - just because it's straightforward to lay out the architecture, that doesn't mean it's all that simple or cheap to implement.

And is it really ok to waive* the check that the ticket has been used when the network is down? You can't reuse a paper ticket (without a passout) whether or not there is a stable network - it's been ripped. So allowing people in without that check would be a downgrade in security.

* Ok, it's not really waiving the check, it's not ensuring that the check is using the latest data. So 10 minutes of downtime would be fine, but what about 8 hours on the Wednesday? Huge scope for multiple use of tickets. Is there a cutoff where too much downtime is too much? What if there are some bad messages in the queues that cause endless retries?

There are answers for all these questions, but it's non-trivial. Once you get into it, there's a lot of scenarios to work through and very difficult to pilot. It has to work once Michael cuts the ribbon.

Here's a thought - two similar looking people converge on the gates on opposite ends of the site at the same time with some sort of wi-fi jamming tech.  They would probably both be able to get in.

Struggling to see why is this any different to the current set up? Your ticket gets scanned and the barcode will get checked against some database, and they'll look at your face. 

[dotdash79]

1 hour ago, Leyrulion said:

 

Extra costs of that would be off set by the savings from sending 135,000 special delivery mails. That's probably the best part of 1/4 of a million in itself. 

 

Post and packing is a separate order line the ticket holders pay. 

[incident]

8 minutes ago, Tuna said:

Struggling to see why is this any different to the current set up? Your ticket gets scanned and the barcode will get checked against some database, and they'll look at your face. 

To date, there never has been barcodes on public tickets, and they're not checked against any database.

The part where ticket is "scanned" is just a UV check, used to identify counterfeit tickets. The photo check is against the one printed on the ticket itself, so it's all fairly rudimentary.

[Tuna]

13 minutes ago, incident said:

To date, there never has been barcodes on public tickets, and they're not checked against any database.

The part where ticket is "scanned" is just a UV check, used to identify counterfeit tickets. The photo check is against the one printed on the ticket itself, so it's all fairly rudimentary.

Ah fair. Have never clocked there's no barcode 😅

[morph100]

I NEED this for the pass out system to campervans, I have to try and manage all kinds of paper slips in a state where I can barely tie a shoe lace 

[gfa]

4 hours ago, maelzoid said:

This is all easily solved.

The e-ticket is essentially a QR code which the holder can print at home or keep on an app.

At the gate, the staff scans the QR code with a smart phone (a similar setup as used by ticket inspectors on trains) which links it to a database and brings up the photo, in better definition than would be printed on the ticket. This database can be pre-loaded into the phones so that does not require them having perfect connectivity. They would have the photos for months, so this can all be done way in advance.

If they can ensure good connectivity then they can also tick off who has already entered and essentially bar that ticket from entering again, unless that person passes back out with another scan.

Pre-loading 150,000+ photos in good definition sounds like a mountain of a task in itself. Based on some random article i found (https://www.quora.com/How-much-memory-space-does-50-000-photos-take-up-when-theyre-on-a-128-GB-iPad-4-with-retina-display) it could take up a serious amount of space on the ticket scanners phones + the devices need to be bought too and would only be used for a week a year.

[stuartbert two hats]

1 hour ago, gfa said:

Pre-loading 150,000+ photos in good definition sounds like a mountain of a task in itself. Based on some random article i found (https://www.quora.com/How-much-memory-space-does-50-000-photos-take-up-when-theyre-on-a-128-GB-iPad-4-with-retina-display) it could take up a serious amount of space on the ticket scanners phones + the devices need to be bought too and would only be used for a week a year.

Oh, I think my maths was off by an order of magnitude earlier. Oops.

[tigger123]

How would it work with the coach too? If you had a digital ticket, people would just not bother with the coach which is more environmentally damaging than printing paper tickets

[incident]

10 minutes ago, tigger123 said:

How would it work with the coach too? If you had a digital ticket, people would just not bother with the coach which is more environmentally damaging than printing paper tickets

There's always a solution, it's just when you start having to cater for every scenario then it sometimes becomes too complicated to be worth bothering.

For example it'd be possible to have the coach driver scan people on or off the coach - and the festival ticket doesn't get activated until that happens - but that would mean more backend development, more hassle for the driver, etc.

[stuartbert two hats]

6 minutes ago, tigger123 said:

How would it work with the coach too? If you had a digital ticket, people would just not bother with the coach which is more environmentally damaging than printing paper tickets

Because there's no handing out of tickets on the coach? I suppose it's another technical challenge - those tickets would need to be activated by traveling down on the coach. That certainly sounds more time consuming than handing out a few envelopes. 

On the subject of the photo storage, the current max resolution is 500k, which I calculate as needing 675Gb for 135k images. That's not commodity level storage for a smartphone.

 

I do think it will happen eventually, but I do not think it's simple.

 

[March Hare]

12 hours ago, Leyrulion said:

Tbh you can still defraud with the paper ticket. You see quite a few posts around festival time that are like "mid length brown haired, brown eyes white male" ticket for sale. 

People chance their luck with the stewards at the gate not asking too many questions.

In 2019 the picture on a ticket didn’t quite match so a steward (mate of mine) asked “what’s your postcode” and the fella responded “can’t remember” 😂😂😂.  So if your gonna buy a ticket from a tout, learn the deets printed on there 

[maelzoid]

14 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Because there's no handing out of tickets on the coach? I suppose it's another technical challenge - those tickets would need to be activated by traveling down on the coach. That certainly sounds more time consuming than handing out a few envelopes. 

On the subject of the photo storage, the current max resolution is 500k, which I calculate as needing 675Gb for 135k images. That's not commodity level storage for a smartphone.

 

I do think it will happen eventually, but I do not think it's simple.

 

Your maths is wrong.

135,000 x 500kB  = 67.5 GB

[gfa]

3 hours ago, maelzoid said:

Your maths is wrong.

135,000 x 500kB  = 67.5 GB

That’s still quite a bit of room, definitely manageable but would require staff to be given out devices as not everyone has that much room.

Above all else i personally just like having a paper ticket, mobile tickets are a faff in London, let alone in a field in the middle of Somerset. Reading did it this year and it worked okay enough for me but there were plenty of people having to wait hours with issues and thats without photo ID. The idea was pushed with covid but it needs another few years to be properly feasible imo

[stuartbert two hats]

4 hours ago, maelzoid said:

Your maths is wrong.

135,000 x 500kB  = 67.5 GB

Ah fuck, not my day for maths, yesterday. I agree. 

135,500 X 0.5 = 67,500 Mb.

67,500÷10 = 67.5Gb.

 

So it is doable for the whole database in <100Gb.

[stuartbert two hats]

FWIW, my recent experiences with e-tickets have been pretty good. I don't need to remember or print anything, just turn up and show the QR code. Although a few years ago (2015) at Parklife, it was sunny which meant I had to push my brightness right up.

[maelzoid]

Of course, the next step is facial recognition technology. No ticket at all, just turn up with your face. And then got off it…amiright!?

[Leyrulion]

23 hours ago, dotdash79 said:

Post and packing is a separate order line the ticket holders pay. 

The ticket holders pay for everything anyway? You'd still pay for the costs involved in delivering the ticketing, whether that's postal or electronic scanning.

[Hugh Jass]

56 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

FWIW, my recent experiences with e-tickets have been pretty good. I don't need to remember or print anything, just turn up and show the QR code. Although a few years ago (2015) at Parklife, it was sunny which meant I had to push my brightness right up.

This will be the biggest problem given that it's going to be utterly glorious this June...

[Smeble]

Can’t remember the last time I went to a gig or event with a ticket that arrived by post, (probably the last Glastonbury I went to in 2017) it’s archaic and Glastonbury needs to get with the times, especially if they have pretentions of eco friendliness. Even here in Luxembourg where your bank debit card doesn’t work on  that new fangled  interwebnet thingy event tickets are e tickets.

 

[gooner1990]

3 hours ago, Smeble said:

Can’t remember the last time I went to a gig or event with a ticket that arrived by post, (probably the last Glastonbury I went to in 2017) it’s archaic and Glastonbury needs to get with the times, especially if they have pretentions of eco friendliness. Even here in Luxembourg where your bank debit card doesn’t work on  that new fangled  interwebnet thingy event tickets are e tickets.

 

If you think it’s archaic you clearly aren’t a football fan! 😂