news & politics:discussion

[eFestivals]

3 hours ago, mattiloy said:

I didn’t call you an idiot - I called Keir Starmer an idiot, or right wing. Or both.

Haven't you got some ravid capitalism to do banker. 

3 hours ago, mattiloy said:

For what its worth, I think you’re pretty reasonable, and I’m sure on policy we agree on a lot!

 

[DeanoL]

It was the IRA stuff that did for Corbyn in the North, not the anti-semitism stuff anyway. The media focusing on the latter missed the story, to be honest.

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

It was the IRA stuff that did for Corbyn in the North, not the anti-semitism stuff anyway. The media focusing on the latter missed the story, to be honest.

yeah...I heard that was coming up a lot in many areas..many people didn't like him for all sorts of reasons...republican, pacifist, terrorist groups, Russia/Salisbury poisoning, beard...and even antisemitism. I guess another calculation by Starmer was that getting rid of him got rid of that problem....but trouble is Corbyn was also very popular amongst many labour members and supporters....and now many are very anti-Starmer...like mattiloy.

[Filthy]

The worst thing is the very same corbynites preaching unity when he was in power and asking the centre/ right of the labour party to hold their nose and back Corbyn are now the very ones rubbishing Starmer. This is why the Tories win, because they focus on who can win for them and worry about the rest later. 

[squirrelarmy]

This minority of people still pining over Corbyn reminds me of the same situation as breaking up with someone. 
 

It’s time to grow up and move on. He’s not coming back no matter how hard you stare at his picture. 

[Copperface]

5 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

This minority of people still pining over Corbyn reminds me of the same situation as breaking up with someone. 
 

It’s time to grow up and move on. He’s not coming back no matter how hard you stare at his picture. 

 

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yeah...I heard that was coming up a lot in many areas..many people didn't like him for all sorts of reasons...republican, pacifist, terrorist groups, Russia/Salisbury poisoning, beard...and even antisemitism. I guess another calculation by Starmer was that getting rid of him got rid of that problem....but trouble is Corbyn was also very popular amongst many labour members and supporters....and now many are very anti-Starmer...like mattiloy.

His baggage the stuff which was identified from the start for why he was a bad choice with little chance of success. Each one of those things made him unsupportableby some people which is not a great thing when support is needed for victory. 

[mattiloy]

2 minutes ago, Filthy said:

The worst thing is the very same corbynites preaching unity when he was in power and asking the centre/ right of the labour party to hold their nose and back Corbyn are now the very ones rubbishing Starmer. This is why the Tories win, because they focus on who can win for them and worry about the rest later. 

 

Lollllllllll idk what bizarre echo chamber you live in.
Corbyn put plenty right wing folk in his shadow cabinet, they quit, they made a coup. He even accepted those who staged the coup back into the shadow cabinet if they were willing.

They left, they started the Independence Group for change. They even went out to their constituencies and told them not to vote for Corbyn......

 Contrast to now, Starmer kicked Corbyn out, Starmer sacked the left wing members of his shadow cabinet, Starmer kicked out members for voicing support for Corbyn, Starmer appointed Peter Mandelson to be his senior policy advisor - a long time antagonist of the left who said ’I am working all day every day to undermine Jeremy Corbyn’ When he was leader. That is nothing But a provocation.

There is a world of difference.

 

12 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yeah...I heard that was coming up a lot in many areas..many people didn't like him for all sorts of reasons...republican, pacifist, terrorist groups, Russia/Salisbury poisoning, beard...and even antisemitism. I guess another calculation by Starmer was that getting rid of him got rid of that problem....but trouble is Corbyn was also very popular amongst many labour members and supporters....and now many are very anti-Starmer...like mattiloy.

True story. Corbyn had many virtues and also some baggage. Starmer is an overbearing disciplinarian without any of the personal gravitas to pull it off. The personality of Stalin in the persona of Christopher Biggins. Get him gone.

[SwedgeAntilles]

1 hour ago, topmarksbri said:

Something a bit different - thoughts...

No interesting kinks please, we're British 

[squirrelarmy]

1 hour ago, topmarksbri said:

Something a bit different - thoughts...

Based on that I’m clearly a Centrist

[Filthy]

5 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

 

Lollllllllll idk what bizarre echo chamber you live in.
Corbyn put plenty right wing folk in his shadow cabinet, they quit, they made a coup. He even accepted those who staged the coup back into the shadow cabinet if they were willing.

They left, they started the Independence Group for change. They even went out to their constituencies and told them not to vote for Corbyn......

 Contrast to now, Starmer kicked Corbyn out, Starmer sacked the left wing members of his shadow cabinet, Starmer kicked out members for voicing support for Corbyn, Starmer appointed Peter Mandelson to be his senior policy advisor - a long time antagonist of the left who said ’I am working all day every day to undermine Jeremy Corbyn’ When he was leader. That is nothing But a provocation.

There is a world of difference.

 

True story. Corbyn had many virtues and also some baggage. Starmer is an overbearing disciplinarian without any of the personal gravitas to pull it off. The personality of Stalin in the persona of Christopher Biggins. Get him gone.

So I'm in the echo chamber and you're still recounting tales from 5 years ago. I'm talking about the last election with Corbyn and this new campaign with Kier Starmer. You seem to be amalgamating every person who ever wronged Corbyn and inventing some stick to beat any future leader of the party. It will be your fault when the tories get in again.

[Guest]

 

[mattiloy]

45 minutes ago, Filthy said:

So I'm in the echo chamber and you're still recounting tales from 5 years ago. I'm talking about the last election with Corbyn and this new campaign with Kier Starmer. You seem to be amalgamating every person who ever wronged Corbyn and inventing some stick to beat any future leader of the party. It will be your fault when the tories get in again.

Yes. Unfollow the likes of Ian Austin, Rachel Riley, Ian Dunt, James O Brien, stop reading guardian and independent columns and open your eyes.

[Filthy]

3 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Yes. Unfollow the likes of Ian Austin, Rachel Riley, Ian Dunt, James O Brien, stop reading guardian and independent columns and open your eyes.

Open my eyes to what? Corbyn systematically failing to be a good leader, being told to swallow it up and vote for him and then when the balance changes at the top being told that it doesn't work the other way round? 

Compromise can only be achieved if it's to your way of thinking. Cheers

[Radiochicken]

5 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Oh but he is. If you think that Corbyn is antisemitic, you are right wing or an idiot.

Dan Carden would be my pick.

There’s a really nice nuanced point about this in David’s book Jews Don’t Count: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0008399476/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_AVQB7MPB8PW1NBS46Y32 

He doesn't say Corbyn is overtly “anti-Semitic” but that he has an obvious blind spot when it blurs into “anti-capitalism”...

Worth a read (if you haven’t).

[jparx]

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/apr/27/rupert-murdoch-scales-back-plan-for-news-uk-tv-channel
 

This seems like a win.

[DeanoL]

1 hour ago, Filthy said:

The worst thing is the very same corbynites preaching unity when he was in power and asking the centre/ right of the labour party to hold their nose and back Corbyn are now the very ones rubbishing Starmer. This is why the Tories win, because they focus on who can win for them and worry about the rest later. 

That's true. But what's also true is that the very same people preaching unity now and asking the left to hold their nose and back Starmer are the ones that were constantly attacking and briefing against Corbyn.

That doesn't excuse the behaviour on either side, but when you can only ever see one side of it, you're part of the problem.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

His baggage the stuff which was identified from the start for why he was a bad choice with little chance of success. Each one of those things made him unsupportableby some people which is not a great thing when support is needed for victory. 

He wasn't who the left would even have chosen. He was put on the ballot for reasons somewhere between a joke, and a desire to have at least some left-wing representation on there. It's not like anyone stopped to think who would actually do a good job leading the party if they won as there was zero chance they were going to win. 

Having said that, that he was able to win, and subsequently reinvigorate Labour with young people via this slightly weird but effective cult of personality thing is a credit to him. RLB would not have been able to pull that off. 

But yeah, his background meant that given enough time for the media to pull him apart there would be enough questions raised he was out of luck. 

Labour's current problem is just an absolute sheer lack of talent anywhere in the party. And I worry that the entire Starmer thing has killed off much of the new younger talent Corbyn bought in before it even had a chance to get established. Starmer probably is the best we can do at the moment and he's not good enough either.

[topmarksbri]

Bumped into Ed Miliband the other day - immediately asked what I did and had an interesting in depth discussion about my industry and its moral shortcomings (not going to dox myself here) and what could be done to improve it. Honestly reckon he'd be pretty perfect shared ground across modern Labour but alas, the man loves a bacon sarnie....

[DeanoL]

I genuinely think if Miliband had been allowed to be himself - bit of a nerd, slightly awkward, but clearly smart - he'd have won that election. He might have been the first modern populist - Trump and Johnson have demonstrated since that you don't need to be "statesmanlike" to get elected any more.

And Miliband was being told to be less of a geek at the point geekiness was just becoming popular. Best PM we never had.

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

That's true. But what's also true is that the very same people preaching unity now and asking the left to hold their nose and back Starmer are the ones that were constantly attacking and briefing against Corbyn.

That doesn't excuse the behaviour on either side, but when you can only ever see one side of it, you're part of the problem.

He wasn't who the left would even have chosen. He was put on the ballot for reasons somewhere between a joke, and a desire to have at least some left-wing representation on there.

 

 

And his vanity "it's my turn" he supposedly said. In the end his vanity became a dreadful factor in his time as leader. 

12 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

 I

t's not like anyone stopped to think who would actually do a good job leading the party if they won as there was zero chance they were going to win.

 

12 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

 

 

Having said that, that he was able to win, and subsequently reinvigorate Labour with young people via this slightly weird but effective cult of personality thing is a credit to him. RLB would not have been able to pull that off. 

The media didn't need time he was such an easy target

12 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

But yeah, his background meant that given enough time for the media to pull him apart there would be enough questions raised he was out of luck. 

 

12 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Labour's current problem is just an absolute sheer lack of talent anywhere in the party. And I worry that the entire Starmer thing has killed off much of the new younger talent Corbyn bought in before it even had a chance to get established. Starmer probably is the best we can do at the moment and he's not good enough either.

 

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

Yes. Unfollow the likes of Ian Austin, Rachel Riley, Ian Dunt, James O Brien, stop reading guardian and independent columns and open your eyes.

read owen jones and bastani instead?

[DeanoL]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The media didn't need time he was such an easy target

That's what May thought when she called that snap election to increase her majority.

Plenty more people were willing to vote for Corbyn the first time than the second, and in the first campaign anti-semitism didn't come up and the IRA stuff was barely touched on.

[steviewevie]

Just now, DeanoL said:

That's what May thought when she called that snap election to increase her majority.

Plenty more people were willing to vote for Corbyn the first time than the second, and in the first campaign anti-semitism didn't come up and the IRA stuff was barely touched on.

May really did fuck up that campaign, and the labour manifesto was popular and Corbyn was the man for a while, then his popularity started to sink again. Corbyn was actually a good campaigner and seemed to come alive leading up to that election...for the 2019 one he just looked knackered and fed up.

[steviewevie]

But...that 2017 campaign...if May had won convincingly then we would have had her brexit deal with UK still in the customs union and close to single market making things a lot easier in NI and for some businesses...and we wouldn't have Bojo as PM and Patel in the cabinet.

(maybe).

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

That's what May thought when she called that snap election to increase her majority.

Plenty more people were willing to vote for Corbyn the first time than the second, and in the first campaign anti-semitism didn't come up and the IRA stuff was barely touched on.

May fucked that up and breithed life into corbyn.