news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

Am I the only person who finds it odd that after the Brexit lies & abuses of power and  the needless covid deaths, our prime minister appears to be in more trouble over who paid for his wallpaper?

yeah, it is odd....but I guess with brexit many people just wanted brexit to go away and that was his selling point, overcome the in decisive parliament and just get it finished. It isn't finished, but it certainly isn't in the news anymore, and I'm not sure many people outside NI care about the lies. With covid he was polling really badly the 2nd half of last year, but the success of the vaccines has saved him from that. In the end we made many mistakes and had many more deaths than we could have, but we're not the only country to have done similar, and infact now we appear to be doing better than most.
I'm not sure how much this flat thing will get him in trouble. It's obviously a bit dodgy, but not sure how much people really care. The guy is a w*nker, but he somehow manages to sell himself as a good bloke, one of the lads, doing his best, prepared to bend the rules a bit for the people etc etc.

[Zoo Music Girl]

9 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yeah, it's on my list of books to read...I just need to start reading.

I've been so rubbish at reading this past year. This is a short one, though! 

[steviewevie]

For those that like podcasts this one by Rafael Behr is pretty good...and in this episode he's talking to David Baddiel about his book...

https://politics-on-the-couch.zencast.website/episodes/identity-david-baddiel-on-jewishness-antisemitism-and-a-bit-about-football

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

lindynlies so forgiven you want to go round the loop again with thousands set to vote for the sex pest. And free pass the bigger than brexit lies. To a bigger than brexit disaster flag shaggers everywhere are too busy shagging the flag to go where it matters.

😊

[Homer]

The biggest change I can see is that the right wing press seem to have turned on him and are running with this issue. That is the most important factor in affecting public opinion (in my opinion... sadly).

[Homer]

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/that-w*nker-goves-next-in-line-britain-realises-20210428207535?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR21EdD7Qi98eyn40qm2un0xWiP2hpgSn-8iBu6BtnXh58S9R4xTojWcM6o#Echobox=1619594967

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, Homer said:

The biggest change I can see is that the right wing press seem to have turned on him and are running with this issue. That is the most important factor in affecting public opinion (in my opinion... sadly).

See anunmAarried mother has had £30k from the govt to do her house in a tacky way

[Zoo Music Girl]

23 minutes ago, Homer said:

The biggest change I can see is that the right wing press seem to have turned on him and are running with this issue. That is the most important factor in affecting public opinion (in my opinion... sadly).

Yeah that what seems different to me too. He will be out by summer. He hates not being seen as Mr Nice Guy and I reckon that will wear him down too.

[Ryan1984]

29 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Yeah that what seems different to me too. He will be out by summer. He hates not being seen as Mr Nice Guy and I reckon that will wear him down too.

As someone said on here, he’ll go with how he ‘Got Brexit done’ and led the country through unprecedented times and now is the time to focus on his health and family. Before he settles into a lucrative dinner speech lifestyle.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, Ryan1984 said:

As someone said on here, he’ll go with how he ‘Got Brexit done’ and led the country through unprecedented times and now is the time to focus on his health and family. Before he settles into a lucrative dinner speech lifestyle.

Being pm is enough for him h never had a big dream of what he wanted to do with it. 

[mattiloy]

2 hours ago, steviewevie said:

For those that like podcasts this one by Rafael Behr is pretty good...and in this episode he's talking to David Baddiel about his book...

https://politics-on-the-couch.zencast.website/episodes/identity-david-baddiel-on-jewishness-antisemitism-and-a-bit-about-football

Listened - whilst I have sympathy for those on the receiving end of genuine antisemitism, and having admittedly not read the book, from what I can grasp of the thrust - that antisemitism is not afforded equal status by the left to other forms of racism - I’m not sure I entirely agree. The amount of attention it receives compared to islamophobia or say anti-polish sentiment is huge, despite these being a much larger problem in the population (as a share of the number of hate crimes reported to police).

Also he seems to be fixated on that stereotypes of Jews seem to be acceptable whilst not of other groups. Its simply not true, be it drunk irishmen, dour Scots, sheep shagging welsh, lily-livered french, or racist white van man Englander, ’acceptable’ stereotypes are the norm.

The unfortunate fall out from the exaggeration of antisemitism being a problem in the labour party is now hypersensitivity towards it in the way that there seems to be to everything these days. I have seen Baddiel tweet about non Jewish actors depicting stereotypical Jewish characters as problematic. This is Baddiel depicting Jason Lee in a comedy sketch.

I get why you’d have a bias when you are prominent on social media and as a result you get hounded by racist trolls all day but I think its a very myopic perspective that he has if he’s saying that antisemitism has a lesser platform than other forms of racism.

Edited April 28, 2021 by mattiloy

[mattiloy]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

More head in sand time for Labour supporters...

I don’t support Labour my mate.

[steviewevie]

8 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Listened - whilst I have sympathy for those on the receiving end of genuine antisemitism, and having admittedly not read the book, from what I can grasp of the thrust - that antisemitism is not afforded equal status by the left to other forms of racism - I’m not sure I entirely agree. The amount of attention it receives compared to islamophobia or say anti-polish sentiment is huge, despite these being a much larger problem in the population (as a share of the number of hate crimes reported to police).

Also he seems to be fixated on that stereotypes of Jews seem to be acceptable whilst not of other groups. Its simply not true, be it drunk irishmen, dour Scots, sheep shagging welsh, lily-livered french, or racist white van man Englander, ’acceptable’ stereotypes are the norm.

The unfortunate fall out from the exaggeration of antisemitism being a problem in the labour party is now hypersensitivity towards it in the way that there seems to be to everything these days. I have seen Baddiel tweet about non Jewish actors depicting stereotypical Jewish characters as problematic. This is Baddiel depicting Jason Lee in a comedy sketch.

I get why you’d have a bias when you are prominent on social media and as a result you get hounded by racist trolls all day but I think its a very myopic perspective that he has.

I knew you'd bring that up.

[Guest]

Boris Johnson is a terrible writer. 

[Punksnotdead]

19 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Listened - whilst I have sympathy for those on the receiving end of genuine antisemitism, and having admittedly not read the book, from what I can grasp of the thrust - that antisemitism is not afforded equal status by the left to other forms of racism - I’m not sure I entirely agree. The amount of attention it receives compared to islamophobia or say anti-polish sentiment is huge, despite these being a much larger problem in the population (as a share of the number of hate crimes reported to police).

Also he seems to be fixated on that stereotypes of Jews seem to be acceptable whilst not of other groups. Its simply not true, be it drunk irishmen, dour Scots, sheep shagging welsh, lily-livered french, or racist white van man Englander, ’acceptable’ stereotypes are the norm.

The unfortunate fall out from the exaggeration of antisemitism being a problem in the labour party is now hypersensitivity towards it in the way that there seems to be to everything these days. I have seen Baddiel tweet about non Jewish actors depicting stereotypical Jewish characters as problematic. This is Baddiel depicting Jason Lee in a comedy sketch.

I get why you’d have a bias when you are prominent on social media and as a result you get hounded by racist trolls all day but I think its a very myopic perspective that he has if he’s saying that antisemitism has a lesser platform than other forms of racism.

Baddiel has said a number of times he bitterly regrets doing that & has apologised. Doesn't make it ok of course but at least he's acknowledged the error of his ways.

[mattiloy]

17 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I knew you'd bring that up.

Well, it is relevant.

For what its worth I see him as a man who is genuinely trying to listen to both sides, unlike many who simply weaponise antisemitism, but I just think his take bares the bias of a person of jewish background who is very prominent on twitter and thus doubtless receives dogs abuse from the worst people in society.

That abuse is not replicated in the wider world to the extent of other forms of racism (per Police England stats). His background is also unlikely to render him a victim of systemic discrimination.
 

Overall, in the uk, in terms of scale and impact, it is a smaller issue than other forms of racism. On a case by case basis, it is of course an equal issue. I think Baddiel is confusedly experiencing the former - that overall it is a lesser issue, which it is - whilst arguing the latter - that on a case by case basis it is a lesser issue on the left. I don’t believe that the left would be less outraged if a jewish person was murdered in a racist killing than if it were a muslim. So i think he’s wrong.

Edited April 28, 2021 by mattiloy

[steviewevie]

9 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Well, it is relevant.

For what its worth I see him as a man who is genuinely trying to listen to both sides, unlike many who simply weaponise antisemitism, but I just think his take bares the bias of a person of jewish background who is very prominent on twitter and thus doubtless receives dogs abuse from the worst people in society.

That abuse is not replicated in the wider world to the extent of other forms of racism (per Police England stats). His background is also unlikely to render him a victim of systemic discrimination.
 

Overall, in the uk, in terms of scale and impact, it is a smaller issue than other forms of racism. On a case by case basis, it is an equal issue. I think Baddiel is confusedly experiencing the former - that overall it is a lesser issue, which it is - whilst arguing the latter - that on a case by case basis it is a lesser issue on the left. I don’t believe that the left would be less outraged if a jewish person was murdered in a racist killing than if it were a muslim. So i think he’s wrong.

you talk about the left as a whole as if they all think the same on this...I'm sure most would be as outraged with a jew being killed as a muslim...I know from experience of conversations I've had that there are people on the left who think it is ok to be prejudiced against jews, same as I know from experience that in general a lot of people are racist...

Edited April 28, 2021 by steviewevie

[mattiloy]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

you talk about the left as a whole as if they all think the same on this...I'm sure most would be as outraged with a jew being killed as a muslim...I know for a from experience of conversations I've had that there are people on the left who think it is ok to be prejudiced against jews, same as I know from experience that in general a lot of people are racist...

If someone is antisemitic then for me they are not left wing. Not in spirit anyway. They may have by chance read Marx rather than Hayek but if it were the other way they would be right wing. If you are guided by a visceral reaction against injustice - all injustice - then you are naturally left wing. Otherwise you are a pretender.

Edited April 28, 2021 by mattiloy

[DeanoL]

20 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Listened - whilst I have sympathy for those on the receiving end of genuine antisemitism, and having admittedly not read the book, from what I can grasp of the thrust - that antisemitism is not afforded equal status by the left to other forms of racism - I’m not sure I entirely agree. The amount of attention it receives compared to islamophobia or say anti-polish sentiment is huge, despite these being a much larger problem in the population (as a share of the number of hate crimes reported to police).

I struggle with all this a lot - I do actually think that antisemitism is given less attention than other forms of racism. It's been different the past five years, but that's because it was being used as a stick to beat Corbyn. That doesn't mean it was made up or wasn't true *at all*. Just without the right-wing press wanting a stick to beat Corbyn with, antisemitism issues in Labour would have continued to be ignored in a way other forms of racism wouldn't have been.

The thing is though, I think antisemitism in the community or in the media has an equal impact to other forms of racism. But in government it *is* different. If you spoke to Muslims ahead of the last election about what their fears were over a Johnson-led Tory government, they would speak about their worries around increased police powers that would be disproportionately used against them, fear that a more militaristic government would see more armed police and a situation heading towards what we have in the US where black people are almost routinely shot dead by the police. They'd talk about Johnson stirring up anti-Islam sentiment which would normalise and increase violent hate crimes against them. More recent immigrants would talk about having their citizenship applications rejected or even existing citizenship revoked.

Then if you asked Jewish people what they were worried about if Corbyn got in, it's that he would bring in new taxes that disproportionately affected industries which had a larger number of Jewish workers. That Corbyn's "anti-elitism" stance would see people boycotting Jewish businesses.

And neither of those are okay. In any what whatsover. But they are, absolutely, different. 

And y'know, Jewish people have been persecuted throughout history, and the slippery slope must feel very real to them, and if I were Jewish I probably wouldn't have voted Labour last election either. Of course I'd vote for the party that hated other people rather the ones that hated me. 

But from the perspective of someone who is neither Islamic or Jewish, the way the Tories treat Muslims is so, so much worse than the way a Corbyn government would treat Jews. 

And it's a fucking shocking indictment of how shit we are as a country, that at the last election we were having to pick the least-worst racist. We should never have been in that position. But we were. And we did actually end up picking the worst racist.

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

If someone is antisemitic then for me they are not left wing. Not in spirit anyway. They may have by chance read Marx rather than Hayek but if it were the other way they would be right wing. If you are guided by a visceral reaction against injustice - all injustice - then you are naturally left wing. Otherwise you are a pretender.

ok...but doesn't mean these people don't exist in left wing groups/movements/parties

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

I struggle with all this a lot - I do actually think that antisemitism is given less attention than other forms of racism. It's been different the past five years, but that's because it was being used as a stick to beat Corbyn. That doesn't mean it was made up or wasn't true *at all*. Just without the right-wing press wanting a stick to beat Corbyn with, antisemitism issues in Labour would have continued to be ignored in a way other forms of racism wouldn't have been.

The thing is though, I think antisemitism in the community or in the media has an equal impact to other forms of racism. But in government it *is* different. If you spoke to Muslims ahead of the last election about what their fears were over a Johnson-led Tory government, they would speak about their worries around increased police powers that would be disproportionately used against them, fear that a more militaristic government would see more armed police and a situation heading towards what we have in the US where black people are almost routinely shot dead by the police. They'd talk about Johnson stirring up anti-Islam sentiment which would normalise and increase violent hate crimes against them. More recent immigrants would talk about having their citizenship applications rejected or even existing citizenship revoked.

Then if you asked Jewish people what they were worried about if Corbyn got in, it's that he would bring in new taxes that disproportionately affected industries which had a larger number of Jewish workers. That Corbyn's "anti-elitism" stance would see people boycotting Jewish businesses.

And neither of those are okay. In any what whatsover. But they are, absolutely, different. 

And y'know, Jewish people have been persecuted throughout history, and the slippery slope must feel very real to them, and if I were Jewish I probably wouldn't have voted Labour last election either. Of course I'd vote for the party that hated other people rather the ones that hated me. 

But from the perspective of someone who is neither Islamic or Jewish, the way the Tories treat Muslims is so, so much worse than the way a Corbyn government would treat Jews. 

And it's a fucking shocking indictment of how shit we are as a country, that at the last election we were having to pick the least-worst racist. We should never have been in that position. But we were. And we did actually end up picking the worst racist.

Great post (as usual).

But...with corbyn it wasn't just the right wing papers....it was leaders of jewish communities, jewish labour movement etc. Now..this is where they just get accused of being centrist or right wing...and then anyone jewish who supports corbyn gets used as an example of how it isn't a problem...bit like black people being involved in that latest we're not a racist country after all report.

[mattiloy]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

ok...but doesn't mean these people don't exist in left wing groups/movements/parties

True enough but what can you do? There isn’t any vetting for joining the Labour party. Corbyn inherited a complaints process which apparently was fine for the previous however many years, implemented a new complaints process, after being obstructed in doing so by Iain McNichol, which is still unchanged by Starmer so appears to be acceptable. He condemned it everytime he was asked in the media. Still, he is smeared at antisemitic. Its extremely unfair.

12 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

 

Then if you asked Jewish people what they were worried about if Corbyn got in, it's that he would bring in new taxes that disproportionately affected industries which had a larger number of Jewish workers. That Corbyn's "anti-elitism" stance would see people boycotting Jewish businesses.

And neither of those are okay. In any what whatsover. But they are, absolutely, different. 

 

Agree with some of what you wrote but this I have to disagree with and in essence sums up my beef, and probably Corbyn’s beef with the antisemitism lobby - we cannot allow ourselves to get into the position of protecting for example the banking industry from greater taxation or for example not using consumer power (the only tool we have left) to affect change in Israel through boycott divest & sanctions through fear of being branded antisemitic. (Incidentally human rights watch confirmed what we all know that Israel is committing apartheit in the eyes of international law).

This is the ’weaponisation’ of antisemitism in a nutshell- to maintain a political status quo rather than anything to do with actual racism. Its also damaging to the seriousness with which real antisemitism is afforded.

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

Listened - whilst I have sympathy for those on the receiving end of genuine antisemitism, and having admittedly not read the book, from what I can grasp of the thrust - that antisemitism is not afforded equal status by the left to other forms of racism - I’m not sure I entirely agree. The amount of attention it receives compared to islamophobia or say anti-polish sentiment is huge, despite these being a much larger problem in the population (as a share of the number of hate crimes reported to police).

Also he seems to be fixated on that stereotypes of Jews seem to be acceptable whilst not of other groups. Its simply not true, be it drunk irishmen, dour Scots, sheep shagging welsh, lily-livered french, or racist white van man Englander, ’acceptable’ stereotypes are the norm.

The unfortunate fall out from the exaggeration of antisemitism being a problem in the labour party is now hypersensitivity towards it in the way that there seems to be to everything these days. I have seen Baddiel tweet about non Jewish actors depicting stereotypical Jewish characters as problematic. This is Baddiel depicting Jason Lee in a comedy sketch.

I get why you’d have a bias when you are prominent on social media and as a result you get hounded by racist trolls all day but I think its a very myopic perspective that he has if he’s saying that antisemitism has a lesser platform than other forms of racism.

I agree with what you say about anisemitism getting treated differently.wht goes on at spurs wouldn't be tolerated if it was swapped from'yids' to something else.

[zahidf]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

Listened - whilst I have sympathy for those on the receiving end of genuine antisemitism, and having admittedly not read the book, from what I can grasp of the thrust - that antisemitism is not afforded equal status by the left to other forms of racism - I’m not sure I entirely agree. The amount of attention it receives compared to islamophobia or say anti-polish sentiment is huge, despite these being a much larger problem in the population (as a share of the number of hate crimes reported to police).

Also he seems to be fixated on that stereotypes of Jews seem to be acceptable whilst not of other groups. Its simply not true, be it drunk irishmen, dour Scots, sheep shagging welsh, lily-livered french, or racist white van man Englander, ’acceptable’ stereotypes are the norm.

The unfortunate fall out from the exaggeration of antisemitism being a problem in the labour party is now hypersensitivity towards it in the way that there seems to be to everything these days. I have seen Baddiel tweet about non Jewish actors depicting stereotypical Jewish characters as problematic. This is Baddiel depicting Jason Lee in a comedy sketch.

I get why you’d have a bias when you are prominent on social media and as a result you get hounded by racist trolls all day but I think its a very myopic perspective that he has if he’s saying that antisemitism has a lesser platform than other forms of racism.

I can tell you havent read the book because he mentions how people on the left always bring that photo up. He has publically apologised for his actions then on numerous occasions, but people arent interested in an apology from him, they just want him to shut up about anti semitism.

On casting of jewish roles, he makes the point that nowadays, you cant get away with casting non-black people for black roles for example, but you can for jewish roles ( and very stereotyped jewish roles as well)

Its a very good book and well worth a read.

[JoeyT]

PMQs will be an excellent watch today