When will this shit end?

[Homer]

This is all getting a bit depressing... why don't we discuss Brexit instead?!

[efcfanwirral]

44 minutes ago, incident said:

I fail to understand what good cutting down the number of days does. If I'm going to infect someone (or vica versa), then 2 extra days in the company of the same people isn't going to change anything.

Plus there's the fact that you'd be reducing the number of travel days - so for example instead of having outward travel split between the 23rd and 24th, you'd have everyone travelling on the 24th which will make public transport, service stations, etc busier and therefore riskier.

 

38 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

The cutting down of days doesn’t really do anything. If you are in a different household with people then it’ll spread. 

To be fair it could - any that catch it on 22nd/23rd/24th may end up becoming symptomatic/spreading it after 26th if lucky. Small numbers but it all helps. 

16 minutes ago, Euphoricape said:

I hope they go down the path of restricting travel to your own region. The fact people are currently able to travel all over the UK at will has seemed crazy to me during this whole pandemic. Living in Cornwall I would feel much safer with just the south west area visiting.

this feels like the best option at the very start, but they won't enforce it so it may make no difference. Sharing infections between regions seems crazy to me. 

[sjseabass]

4 minutes ago, incident said:

Thing is - most of them already have gone back, and at this point the ones that haven't are probably because they're waiting out isolation after a contact or a positive test.

Fair. I wonder if that might have something to do with the figures getting worse again now, if students have been spreading it for weeks already?

Not a criticism of them at all by the way, just an observation based on what happened in September.

[DeanoL]

56 minutes ago, xxialac said:

That's a desperately poor analogy.

Christmas = pre-vaccination of vulnerable

June = post-vaccination of vulnerable

It's not an analogy. It's that people will use the *exact same argument*.

Come March, people will be saying "We'll have everyone vaccinated by September, it's silly to have a festival in June, why can't people just wait a few months?"

54 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

Other than the religious aspect of the holiday, is there any reason why people can’t postpone their events to a time where people can actually enjoy time with their friends and family safely. 

A fair few businesses shut down over Christmas and give people extra leave that can only be used in that week. Not a massive reason but it contributes to it.

40 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

The bottom line is we currently have 20k cases a day in tiered restrictions with no household mixing. They want to relax that for 3-5 days to allow some houses to mix. 20k cases a day is too high for those of relaxations if anything we should be going the other way as much as it might pain all of us. 

We will be going the other way though. In those 3-5 days schools will be closed, lots of people will be off work and so on. So there is scope to let people mix with family instead, while keeping numbers around the same. If you're saying we need to do more then we need to be doing that now, not just avoiding doing something over Christmas.

The fact is the cases are where they are now immediately after a two week lockdown, followed by most of the country remaining in Tier 3 which pretty much is "still lockdown" and it's not working. Your solution is "more lockdown" - which is basically repeating the same thing hoping for a different result.

Whereas I think some measure of relaxation, just letting people see their families, or at least some of them, and probably still have fewer contacts than they do on an average day, will help actually get some compliance for another lockdown in January. Relieve the pressure a bit. 

Because compliance has got worse and worse and the idea that we just cancel Christmas, and then what? Lockdown in January, just like we did in November, so the numbers keep creeping up. So lockdown in February and no-one cares anymore...

I think Christmas potentially buys them compliance for a strong January lockdown - we gave you Christmas but now you need to pay for it - sort of thing.

[zahidf]

4 minutes ago, Homer said:

This is all getting a bit depressing... why don't we discuss Brexit instead?!

All gone quiet, sounds like they are 'in the tunnel'

[DeanoL]

3 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said:

To be fair it could - any that catch it on 22nd/23rd/24th may end up becoming symptomatic/spreading it after 26th if lucky. Small numbers but it all helps. 

this feels like the best option at the very start, but they won't enforce it so it may make no difference. Sharing infections between regions seems crazy to me. 

But then those people are just spreading it to their regular household instead of their Xmas bubble household. Although they probably should have some guidance on what to do if you become symptomatic while in your Xmas bubble - do you stay put?

Mixing regions at this point doesn't really matter. It's not like we've eliminated it in some parts of the country. It's just a bit less prevalent in some compared to others. But its still there. Whether you get it from the grocery shop or a visiting relative doesn't make much difference. 

[Crazyfool01]

2 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

It's not an analogy. It's that people will use the *exact same argument*.

Come March, people will be saying "We'll have everyone vaccinated by September, it's silly to have a festival in June, why can't people just wait a few months?"

A fair few businesses shut down over Christmas and give people extra leave that can only be used in that week. Not a massive reason but it contributes to it.

We will be going the other way though. In those 3-5 days schools will be closed, lots of people will be off work and so on. So there is scope to let people mix with family instead, while keeping numbers around the same. If you're saying we need to do more then we need to be doing that now, not just avoiding doing something over Christmas.

The fact is the cases are where they are now immediately after a two week lockdown, followed by most of the country remaining in Tier 3 which pretty much is "still lockdown" and it's not working. Your solution is "more lockdown" - which is basically repeating the same thing hoping for a different result.

Whereas I think some measure of relaxation, just letting people see their families, or at least some of them, and probably still have fewer contacts than they do on an average day, will help actually get some compliance for another lockdown in January. Relieve the pressure a bit. 

Because compliance has got worse and worse and the idea that we just cancel Christmas, and then what? Lockdown in January, just like we did in November, so the numbers keep creeping up. So lockdown in February and no-one cares anymore...

I think Christmas potentially buys them compliance for a strong January lockdown - we gave you Christmas but now you need to pay for it - sort of thing.

Yes I absolutely agree ... people have made plans and most won’t change them now after making decisions what they would be doing quite late anyway .. the best that can be hoped is that gentle persuasion might work somewhat ... followed by something stronger ... 

[WestCountryGirl]

I can understand a fear over people moving between tiers and wanting that discouraged if your area is looking alright, but honestly it is only because I live so far away from my parents that is why I am taking this opportunity to go home when allowed. If I lived near enough to my parents to be able to see them even occasionally for walks etc. then I could quite happily not see them at all over Christmas because I'd know I could see them on any weekend any time.

It is entirely because I live a 5 hour drive (at best) away that being able to go into and stay in their house, makes this the only option for seeing them during the current pandemic situation.

Today is just so depressing. I haven't really gotten at all into any kind of Christmas spirit this year, and as much as I've been craving and longing for this trip home I've not even really allowed myself to get excited about it because I feared this would happen. I am just done with everything. I have nothing left, I'm completely depleted of all my energy for anything and I've been running on empty for the last three weeks or so.

[MEGABOWL]

16 minutes ago, st dan said:

I somewhat agree with you, however it is difficult to penalise people who’s families (particularly children/parents) live away though.
For example, we are supposed to be visiting my wife’s parents for Christmas and spending 23rd - 27th with them and her sister’s family as a bubble of 3 households. She’s worked hard all year on the Covid wards and hasn’t seen any of them since March. She’s been looking forward to this Christmas period ever since the announcement, and to take it away a week before would be incredibly harsh and would cause a lot of upset for her. And I know we’re not alone in this situation - far from from in fact. 
This is all just such a mess. 

Yeah I agree. Would be very harsh. Those who live near their Families have been able to see them all year. To hit those who live apart now would be hard to take.

[Ayrshire Chris]

10 minutes ago, Homer said:

This is all getting a bit depressing... why don't we discuss Brexit instead?!

You sound like Boris! 😉

[gooner1990]

12 minutes ago, incident said:

Can only speak for ours - but they were allocated staggered departures over the past 11 days or so, finishing up on Sunday, to try and avoid putting too many people on the transport system at once.

I work at Oxford uni and pretty much all the students have gone home bar a few international students who aren't going home for Christmas.

[DeanoL]

I mean what's really needed is a "here's how to visit and be as safe as possible" guidelines. I think that would have the biggest impact and it's something that should have been happening already.

There's no way any sort of proper ban or clampdown works - just look at how much the "single household" rules get flauted in pubs and restaurants. People will see that and think "well if they can do that, I can visit my family". It's what I would do in that situation (albeit, having been able to isolate for 2 weeks in advance). Unless we're willing to go proper police-state tough we're not going to suddenly get April levels of lockdown compliance over Christmas!

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, gooner1990 said:

I work at Oxford uni and pretty much all the students have gone home bar a few international students who aren't going home for Christmas.

Yep all our students returned to work yesterday... I hope they have been responsible enough to be tested before returning ... I dare not ask 😞 

[sjseabass]

12 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Students are already home and are considered part of the household - they DO NOT count separately towards the 3 household limit because their home is still their permanent address 

That’s a completely arbitrary decision that’s been made though, you’re still allowing people to multiply their contacts. The virus doesn’t care what someone’s primary address is.

[efcfanwirral]

 

 

10 minutes ago, WestCountryGirl said:

I can understand a fear over people moving between tiers and wanting that discouraged if your area is looking alright, but honestly it is only because I live so far away from my parents that is why I am taking this opportunity to go home when allowed. If I lived near enough to my parents to be able to see them even occasionally for walks etc. then I could quite happily not see them at all over Christmas because I'd know I could see them on any weekend any time.

It is entirely because I live a 5 hour drive (at best) away that being able to go into and stay in their house, makes this the only option for seeing them during the current pandemic situation.

Today is just so depressing. I haven't really gotten at all into any kind of Christmas spirit this year, and as much as I've been craving and longing for this trip home I've not even really allowed myself to get excited about it because I feared this would happen. I am just done with everything. I have nothing left, I'm completely depleted of all my energy for anything and I've been running on empty for the last three weeks or so.

Its crazy how many different situations there are really - we're completely opposite ends of it. I had a meltdown last week because it IS allowed. I'm quite near my dad and find it entirely unnecessary but my dad and brother are very much "if we're allowed then it must be ok". Anything I say against the government quite rightly gets ridiculed because I voted for Labour last December! 

I was expecting this u turn so haven't actually cancelled anything yet.

In your case...just do it I reckon. I really think this should be the benchmark on personal responsibility - how bad it makes people feel.

I reckon they'd probably lose about half of us from doing planned things if they cancelled the official advice d now, which would make a big difference 

[efcfanwirral]

17 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

I mean what's really needed is a "here's how to visit and be as safe as possible" guidelines. I think that would have the biggest impact and it's something that should have been happening already.

There's no way any sort of proper ban or clampdown works - just look at how much the "single household" rules get flauted in pubs and restaurants. People will see that and think "well if they can do that, I can visit my family". It's what I would do in that situation (albeit, having been able to isolate for 2 weeks in advance). Unless we're willing to go proper police-state tough we're not going to suddenly get April levels of lockdown compliance over Christmas!

I honestly wouldn't underestimate how many think its actually safe because its allowed. That's probably the reason its spread so much to be honest - a lot dont make the distinction between allowed but risky so be careful on one side and normality on the other 

Critical thinking is deliberately not taught in our schools so this isnt a huge surprise! 

[gooner1990]

18 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

Yep all our students returned to work yesterday... I hope they have been responsible enough to be tested before returning ... I dare not ask 😞 

We are doing lateral flow tests for students who need them to travel abroad,  it was also offered to students who live in the UK although I'm not sure what the take up on that was.

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, gooner1990 said:

We are doing lateral flow tests for students who need them to travel abroad,  it was also offered to students who live in the UK although I'm not sure what the take up on that was.

I heard the figures for some of our south west unis and they were all below 50% .... I guess its better than nothing ... and those students need to get home ... still concerning to see them working amongst others that are vulnerable and extremely vulnerable though .... 

[Homer]

8 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said:

I honestly wouldn't underestimate how many think its actually safe because its allowed. That's probably the reason its spread so much to be honest - a lot dont make the distinction between allowed but risky so be careful on one side and normality on the other 

Critical thinking is deliberately not taught in our schools so this isnt a huge surprise! 

I announced we weren't coming back on the family WhatsApp group earlier and my sister replied 'why not? You know you're allowed don't you?'

[WestCountryGirl]

11 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said:

 

 

Its crazy how many different situations there are really - we're completely opposite ends of it. I had a meltdown last week because it IS allowed. I'm quite near my dad and find it entirely unnecessary but my dad and brother are very much "if we're allowed then it must be ok". Anything I say against the government quite rightly gets ridiculed because I voted for Labour last December! 

I was expecting this u turn so haven't actually cancelled anything yet.

In your case...just do it I reckon. I really think this should be the benchmark on personal responsibility - how bad it makes people feel.

I reckon they'd probably lose about half of us from doing planned things if they cancelled the official advice d now, which would make a big difference 

I'm sure my parents will still be in favour of us coming, and I probably still would too. My boyfriend is quite cautious over rule observing though but I don't think he would call it all off either - he knows how important this is for me. If the government were to 'reduce' the allowed households to two that would still be within the rules for us anyway.

Little tip for everyone: don't listen to Tim Minchin's 'White Wine in the Sun' whilst in the midst of a breakdown over missing your family and living far away from them during a difficult festive season. Thought I was actually about to drown myself in my own tears just then.

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

 

[Homer]

23 minutes ago, WestCountryGirl said:

I'm sure my parents will still be in favour of us coming, and I probably still would too. My boyfriend is quite cautious over rule observing though but I don't think he would call it all off either - he knows how important this is for me. If the government were to 'reduce' the allowed households to two that would still be within the rules for us anyway.

Little tip for everyone: don't listen to Tim Minchin's 'White Wine in the Sun' whilst in the midst of a breakdown over missing your family and living far away from them during a difficult festive season. Thought I was actually about to drown myself in my own tears just then.

This always cheers me up!

 

 

[Fuzzy Afro]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

 

This will be a total disgrace for anyone who has, say, booked a train from Manchester to Southampton or whatever. 
 

But I think the objective is probably to prevent mass travel out of London and the South East. 

[steviewevie]