When will this shit end?

[stuartbert two hats]

4 hours ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

I’m sure the “common cold” is actually a symptom as opposed to a virus. So “common cold” just means the sniffles and blocked nose that you get, but that can be caused by rhinovirus, coronavirus etc. We’ve all learned more about all that this year. 

Yeah, I think that's not a bad way to think of it.  

[Zoo Music Girl]

21 minutes ago, fatyeti24 said:

That statement is fucking hilarious.

Swamp creatures!

[Fuzzy Afro]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Why do you have issues with South Africa? 

Look at their murder rate. They aren’t a country we want to be learning things from. 

[stuartbert two hats]

4 hours ago, st dan said:

Not necessarily taking about the larger scale gatherings as a result, I was coming more that the angle of curing boredom as the darker nights set in and the weather turns. If people can’t go out for food/drink (on a weekend in particular after a long week of working from home confined to the four walls of your house), then I think they’re more likely to go around their friends/families houses for a takeaway and a bottle of wine instead. The human interaction element is a big factor in all of this - and the shift in seasons will make compliance harder for some people.

 

I think that's true, but I don't think the increase in other socialising would completely offset the decrease caused by closing hospitality.

[steviewevie]

18 minutes ago, Gilgamesh69 said:

So um, do we reckon schools are closing again soon then?

Nope.

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Look at their murder rate. They aren’t a country we want to be learning things from. 

Have you looked at their covid cases per 100,000 ? Compared to ours ? As this thread is about covid predominantly and not murder rates something that needs to be considered I would think ... it looks like it’s lower than ours 

[Ozanne]

2 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Look at their murder rate. They aren’t a country we want to be learning things from. 

Wow, bit racist.

We can learn from any country in the world. Just because a country might be having issues in one area doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t learn from them in other areas. Each country has strengths and weaknesses that can be learnt from. 

[fatyeti24]

4 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Look at their murder rate. They aren’t a country we want to be learning things from. 

Look at the quality of their wine.  They are a country we could learn things from.

[Quark]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Wow, bit racist.

We can learn from any country in the world. Just because a country might be having issues in one area doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t learn from them in other areas. Each country has strengths and weaknesses that can be learnt from. 

Not racist at all, just narrow minded.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Quark

[Fuzzy Afro]

1 minute ago, crazyfool1 said:

Have you looked at their covid cases per 100,000 ? Compared to ours ? As this thread is about covid predominantly and not murder rates something that needs to be considered I would think ... it looks like it’s lower than ours 

 

But not as good as places like Germany, South Korea and others who I think we should be learning from
 

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

Wow, bit racist.

We can learn from any country in the world. Just because a country might be having issues in one area doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t learn from them in other areas. Each country has strengths and weaknesses that can be learnt from. 

Okay valid point. Not sure exactly what’s “racist” about it though tbh 

[fatyeti24]

6 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Swamp creatures!

I'm almost tempted to say I'll miss them when they're gone.  But that wouldn't be true.

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

Wow, bit racist.

We can learn from any country in the world. Just because a country might be having issues in one area doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t learn from them in other areas. Each country has strengths and weaknesses that can be learnt from. 

Yep we have that world leading track and trace app don’t we  

[Fuzzy Afro]

1 minute ago, fatyeti24 said:

Look at the quality of their wine.  They are a country we could learn things from.

Very good point 

[Zoo Music Girl]

I doubt the alcohol ban had much effect personally (didn't it lead to an increase in dangerous home brewing?), but it is interesting that Covid rates in Africa as a continent have stayed pretty low. Young population? Lots of people living in less densely populated rural areas? Less international travel? Climate (unlikely seeing the numbers in India)? Not sure why but it is interesting.

[Quark]

1 minute ago, fatyeti24 said:

I'm almost tempted to say I'll miss them when they're gone.  But that wouldn't be true.

He'll never be gone. He might not be in power, but Trump and his cheerleaders will be on Twitter for a loooooong time

[Ozanne]

1 minute ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

I doubt the alcohol ban had much effect personally (didn't it lead to an increase in dangerous home brewing?), but it is interesting that Covid rates in Africa as a continent have stayed pretty low. Young population? Lots of people living in less densely populated rural areas? Less international travel? Climate (unlikely seeing the numbers in India)? Not sure why but it is interesting.

They are looking into that.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-africa-53998374

[Mr.Tease]

1 hour ago, ace56blaa said:

We need a comprehensive list of the same tired arguments against lockdown: 

(There is legitimate concern about lockdown that people have but so much misinformation about why we shouldn't put in extra measures)

"Covid is Just the Flu" - That ons thread, showing in every way how covid is more dangerous than flu, even going as so far to explain even when cvoid is the underlying cause and not "just on the certificate" as many people false claim most covid deaths are. 

"Lockdown will lead to more cancelled cancer treatments" - No it won't the earlier you lockdown, the less likely hospitals are to be overwhelmed, the less likely they are to cancel treatments. Stopping a lockdown does not stops hospitalizations from covid. 

"It'll tank the economy" - Covid is the thing tanking the economy, even at the height of fewer restrictions in august, shops were still reporting losses, the government was still encouraging people to go back to the office to save pret a manger. People's habit changed because of lockdown and the risk of covid, less people even with little restrictions are gonna go to the cinema or a shop. More people will return to life as normal, when they can see the virus is actually under control. Also with financial aid from the government businesses that are shutting now could have stayed open till a vaccine with support. 

"The government can't just bail out businesses and employees forever" - We are 7 months into lockdown, other countries are extending their furlough till next year and beyond. Other european countries has much better benefits for their people or have raised them since covid. - Furlough wasn't making people lazy or businesses scrounging, it was a lifeline for businesses hugely affected by the pandemic. - If you keep those businesses alive, they could be paramount to an economic recovery when people do feel safe. - Also when you see them giving millions of pounds to their friends for projects that will ultimately fail (track and trace, ppe) but they don't have enough money to help people beyond october?

"Mental health will suffer under lockdown" - This is the most valid argument. The restrictions are tough, not seeing people is tough. But I feel like if people had financial support, decent guidance from the government and a transparent plan going forward, locking down would be a lot easier. Also in a second lockdown, we wouldn't need to ban outside exercise for more than an hour or going for a walk with a friend, as we know outside transmission is unlikely. Obviously there is still a lot of impact on mental health, but there is also a long covid impact from catching the virus, or mental health impacts of someone you know dying. Some of which could be a hell of a lot worse than locking down for a few more months.

Obviously there is probably stuff I've missed or stuff that can be argued, but I think we all knew deep down, we could have a second wave and could need to re-lockdown in winter. 

 

Very comprehensive! (I'm out of upvotes so couldn't add one). I just get the feeling a lot of people calling for an end to restrictions, or no more, don't get what the full consequences of that would/could be, because if we do go down that route we really have to do so with eyes open. 

What are we going to do when hospitals hit capacity? Who gets treatment and who doesn't? What happens if the hospital is full and someone has a stroke or heart attack? Where do they go or are we leaving them to die? Do we stop sending people struggling with covid to hospital if they're over a certain age (essentially leaving them to die) or have a co-morbidity, or are we going with a first come first served system?

Cancer treatments and elective surgery will likely have to stop for the foreseeable future - what happens to those people in pain or who won't get the vital treatment they need? 

Essentially how do we manage without a hospital system? Or do we just stop hospitals taking any covid cases and instead try to make them as covid free as possible and instead focus on providing a normal service (again leaving people who need hospitalisation due to covid to die, hugely inflating the mortality rate). 

At the very least if you go down that route, hold off until you get the vaccine results, as at the very least they might allow you to vaccinate hospital staff, which along with quicker testing, could allow you to maybe set up covid and non-covid hospitals, though staffing would be an issue. 

[Fuzzy Afro]

5 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Very comprehensive! (I'm out of upvotes so couldn't add one). I just get the feeling a lot of people calling for an end to restrictions, or no more, don't get what the full consequences of that would/could be, because if we do go down that route we really have to do so with eyes open. 

What are we going to do when hospitals hit capacity? Who gets treatment and who doesn't? What happens if the hospital is full and someone has a stroke or heart attack? Where do they go or are we leaving them to die? Do we stop sending people struggling with covid to hospital if they're over a certain age (essentially leaving them to die) or have a co-morbidity, or are we going with a first come first served system?

Cancer treatments and elective surgery will likely have to stop for the foreseeable future - what happens to those people in pain or who won't get the vital treatment they need? 

Essentially how do we manage without a hospital system? Or do we just stop hospitals taking any covid cases and instead try to make them as covid free as possible and instead focus on providing a normal service (again leaving people who need hospitalisation due to covid to die, hugely inflating the mortality rate). 

At the very least if you go down that route, hold off until you get the vaccine results, as at the very least they might allow you to vaccinate hospital staff, which along with quicker testing, could allow you to maybe set up covid and non-covid hospitals, though staffing would be an issue. 

 

I really hope the hospitals don’t get overwhelmed but if they do I would propose fixing the non-covid capacity at a certain minimum level 

[Fuzzy Afro]

6 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Very comprehensive! (I'm out of upvotes so couldn't add one). I just get the feeling a lot of people calling for an end to restrictions, or no more, don't get what the full consequences of that would/could be, because if we do go down that route we really have to do so with eyes open. 

What are we going to do when hospitals hit capacity? Who gets treatment and who doesn't? What happens if the hospital is full and someone has a stroke or heart attack? Where do they go or are we leaving them to die? Do we stop sending people struggling with covid to hospital if they're over a certain age (essentially leaving them to die) or have a co-morbidity, or are we going with a first come first served system?

Cancer treatments and elective surgery will likely have to stop for the foreseeable future - what happens to those people in pain or who won't get the vital treatment they need? 

Essentially how do we manage without a hospital system? Or do we just stop hospitals taking any covid cases and instead try to make them as covid free as possible and instead focus on providing a normal service (again leaving people who need hospitalisation due to covid to die, hugely inflating the mortality rate). 

At the very least if you go down that route, hold off until you get the vaccine results, as at the very least they might allow you to vaccinate hospital staff, which along with quicker testing, could allow you to maybe set up covid and non-covid hospitals, though staffing would be an issue. 

Could have the nightingales for covid and maybe small sections in other hospitals for covid as well. But in the event of a major outbreak overwhelming hospitals I think I’d rather see them still prioritising your heart attacks, strokes and cancer patients 

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Fuzzy Afro said:

Could have the nightingales for covid and maybe small sections in other hospitals for covid as well. But in the event of a major outbreak overwhelming hospitals I think I’d rather see them still prioritising your heart attacks, strokes and cancer patients 

Why ? 

[Fuzzy Afro]

Just now, crazyfool1 said:

Why ? 

I don’t want people dying for non covid reasons just because the hospitals were overwhelmed 

[ace56blaa]

Just now, Fuzzy Afro said:

Could have the nightingales for covid and maybe small sections in other hospitals for covid as well. But in the event of a major outbreak overwhelming hospitals I think I’d rather see them still prioritising your heart attacks, strokes and cancer patients 

The problem with the nightingale hospital is lack of staff, Doctors have said if you send a patient to a nightinggale hospital you have to send over doctors too, so the actually better way would be improving infrastructure and capacity in the hospitals we already have. 

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Fuzzy Afro said:

I don’t want people dying for non covid reasons just because the hospitals were overwhelmed 

So what’s the difference ? A life is a life surely ? Covid or otherwise ?  

[Fuzzy Afro]

Just now, ace56blaa said:

The problem with the nightingale hospital is lack of staff, Doctors have said if you send a patient to a nightinggale hospital you have to send over doctors too, so the actually better way would be improving infrastructure and capacity in the hospitals we already have. 

There was some talk of calling up some reserve doctors out of retirement, although I’m not sure many 60-and-70 somethings will be volunteering to go on the front line atm 

[ace56blaa]

2 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

There was some talk of calling up some reserve doctors out of retirement, although I’m not sure many 60-and-70 somethings will be volunteering to go on the front line atm 

They did do that! - They even extended the hours someone has retired is allowed to work. The cap used to be sixteen. They also fast tracked a lot of student nurses to help. 

It wouldn't be enough to run nightingale hospitals as a separate wing for covid. In fact nightingale is really a last resort as they are not more than sheds with ventilators and beds in. Obviously they could be improved and made up to scratch, but why hasn't that happened before now. - 

In fact tons of the nurses and doctors bought back to work or fast tracked have no been dropped from the NHS or told they are no longer needed. All in all as soon as the virus seemed less prevalent in june, the gov decided it no longer needed to plan for the worst. You could see it in government policy, they were just acting as if there'd be no second wave. 

So much time wasted by the government and now we are almost back to square 1 in a lot of ways