Emily vs. The Gammons

[stuartbert two hats]

8 minutes ago, Keithy said:

Ed Sheeran? His whole authentic back story about living on mates sofas has been hugely exaggerated to give him authenticity....even he's admitted that the sofa thing was him missing the last bus home and having to skip on a mates sofa.

I must confess I don't know his music all that well to give a fully informed decision.  But whilst he appears to take "play your own instruments" shtick to its logical conclusion, I find his music pretty bland.  Maybe he does have a consistent underlying voice and I just don't like it?  I don't think I'll ever be able to bear listening to enough of his music to find out.  

Actually I quite like the hook to Shape Of You, which is chock full of songwriters, but for one off songs, I don't really care - I'm quite happy to enjoy songs in isolation, irrespective of their genesis*, but when it comes to enjoying a whole body of work, that's when the authorial voice starts to matter to me more.  That's probably why I anticipate new Radiohead releases so much - their insular way of working between the six of them (including Godrich), means that whatever new direction they take, the music will be strongly, unmistakably Radiohead, even without taking the distinctive vocals into account.

 

* Toxic and Can't Get You Out Of My Head I enjoyed standalone when they were first released, but on learning later that there was a single person as the driving force behind both did add a tiny amount to my appreciation of both tracks.

[found home in 2009]

31 minutes ago, musky said:

By and large that’s true of all genres, and the entire music industry from top to bottom. 

It's much more noticeable when a couple of people write/produce the songs for a whole genre than compared to a vibrant scene of artists/bands creating their own music.

22 numbers ones Max Martin has had for example and he's got a ton of people working for him in the equivalent of a factory production line, but for pop music

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/03/26/the-song-machine

Pop artists very rarely write their own music, and the ones that do, like Christine and the Queens are normally the ones that sound far more interesting to my ear.

[CaledonianGonzo]

17 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

I apologise to any Spring Rolls and Tortillas who read this and get redder in the face, when I spout my racism.

Just because it's anti-white, doesn't make it less racist. It's a shame to see racism on these boards.

How can it be anti-white when the gammons in question are a whole range of colours - beetroot, vermillion, puce, etc?

[CaledonianGonzo]

5 minutes ago, found home in 2009 said:

It's much more noticeable when a couple of people write/produce the songs for a whole genre than compared to a vibrant scene of artists/bands creating their own music.

So Motown music isn't vibrant?

[found home in 2009]

11 hours ago, august1 said:

I do think there needs to be a proper conversation about it, than just filling a quota and saying all is fine.

Asian population of the UK is about 7% yet only a handful of players have played in the premier league.

Would every club signing 2/3 players with heritage Asian to get it up to 7% in the league solve it?

Improvements needs to happen in the grassroots and work its way up, there was a survey recently that 95% of people suffer racial abuse playing the game in this country, a lack of role models, less opportunities etc those are issues that need addressing first and I think similar applies to women in music conversation.

Totally agree and sadly even the suffering abuse part is relevant to women performing music. 

Some arsehole shouted "get your tits out" at Courtney Barnett when I went to see her.

[Quark]

2 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

So Motown music isn't vibrant?

It is/was, but it was a factory churning out pop hits. The 4 Tops even released Same Old Song as a poke at themselves!!

[CaledonianGonzo]

1 minute ago, Quark said:

It is/was, but it was a factory churning out pop hits. The 4 Tops even released Same Old Song as a poke at themselves!!

Yup. So factory produced pop is often great.  Virtually all classic reggae was produced in similar circumstances.

[found home in 2009]

4 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

So Motown music isn't vibrant?

I don't think Berry Gordy exercised the same level as control over Motown songs as the like of Max Martin does. 

Supposedly Berry Gordy hated Marvin Gaye's album "What's going on" for example.

[Quark]

5 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Yup. So factory produced pop is often great.  Virtually all classic reggae was produced in similar circumstances.

Yeah, realised after I posted that I was basically agreeing with you. Couldn't be arsed to edit

[Keithy]

24 minutes ago, found home in 2009 said:

It's much more noticeable when a couple of people write/produce the songs for a whole genre than compared to a vibrant scene of artists/bands creating their own music.

22 numbers ones Max Martin has had for example and he's got a ton of people working for him in the equivalent of a factory production line, but for pop music

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/03/26/the-song-machine

Pop artists very rarely write their own music, and the ones that do, like Christine and the Queens are normally the ones that sound far more interesting to my ear.

I'm not quite sure what your point is. 

It sounds like you're trying to say all pop songs sound the same which is patently nonsense. If it's 'all songs produced by Max Martin' sound the same then you have a point but you'd expect a similar sound from the same production team. As for the 22 number ones, given the scale of his business, the length of time he's been in the industry and the calibre of artists that use him, then I'd suggest that 22 hits isn't actually very successful ... which suggests that for a pop song to break through, it's more nauanced than just being produced by Max Martin. And the article you included has the answer to that - the artist is crucial to making it a success.

"Rihanna is often described as a “manufactured” pop star, because she doesn’t write her songs, but neither did Sinatra or Elvis. She embodies a song in the way an actor inhabits a role"

Indeed, few pop stars actively write their own songs and there's usually a list of writing credits. But the same applies to traditional bands. They may not have writing credits but lots of bands have credits on their songs because they've been 'influenced' or 'borrowed' snippets of other songs. Would Bitter Sweet Symphony have been as massive without The Rolling Stones providing the absolute key element of that song? How's that any different to a song writing team or a production team 'manufacturing' a hit?

Pop songs all sound the same if you listen to the same genre of pop songs. But that applies to all genres. It's probable more pronounced at the moment as pop music is currently dominated by USA produced pop but step away from that and there's huge variety in pop when you look at the UK, Scandinavia and Australia.

[Keithy]

11 hours ago, august1 said:

Asian population of the UK is about 7% yet only a handful of players have played in the premier league.

Would every club signing 2/3 players with heritage Asian to get it up to 7% in the league solve it?

I'm not entirely clear what the point your trying to make is. Without knowing the numbers of Asians engaged in grassrootsfootball, I'd suggest the lack of Asian footballers is perhaps more of a cultural thing than perhaps a racial thing in that there's so few Asian premier league football's because there's so few Asians who play football. It's a bit like saying there are no Indian footballers.... which is right but culturally, India is a cricketing country and heritage. You can't force engagement if they want to play another sport but you can ensure that those who do want to play get the same opportunities as their counterparts. If there were supremely talented Asian footballers not being signed by Premier League clubs then yes, I'd very much support positive discrimination. It's the only way to break down long standing barriers. That positive discrimination is already happening. Clubs are forced to have a number of youngsters in their season squads to ensure they are getting fair representation.

But Emily is not just wanting more women on the bill simply to fulfill a quota, she's wanting fair representation of the talent that is already out there.

With females and music, the under representation is not because there are few of them in the industry - there are lots of bands who are either 'all female" or female fronted but don't get the same opportunities as their all male counterparts. There are a never ending list of anecdotes of women being stopped from going to their own backstage ("sorry love, band members only") or being told how to tune their own instruments.

That under representation comes from outright or unconscious sexism built up over years and bookers booking what they've always booked.

[Zoo Music Girl]

On 4/1/2019 at 12:48 PM, CaledonianGonzo said:

This why when I hear IDLES I'm like "lol no - one Sham 69 is enough"

So much this. 100% don't get what's new or interesting about them.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

1 hour ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

How can it be anti-white when the gammons in question are a whole range of colours - beetroot, vermillion, puce, etc?

Yeah, totally agree. Asians aren't just yellow. They're cinnamon, mustard, banana, butter.

It's what I think of when I see Janet Jackson being angry. Why does she have to be such a Mocha Swirl?

Don't you see the hypcocracy of it all? How can we have equality when ppl make negavtive observations based on colour?

[Bradders]

9 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

So much this. 100% don't get what's new or interesting about them.

The guitarist plays in his underwear, that’s the main reason people like them.

[clarkete]

This thread is like overhearing a bunch of unrelated conversations simultaneously in the pub.

[Zoo Music Girl]

13 minutes ago, Bradders said:

The guitarist plays in his underwear, that’s the main reason people like them.

Ah, that makes a lot of sense.

5 minutes ago, clarkete said:

This thread is like overhearing a bunch of unrelated conversations simultaneously in the pub.

Partly my bad, days late with the above comment!

[H.M.V]

5 hours ago, hfuhruhurr said:

Highlighting the gender balance thing is fab and doing something about it has to be welcomed.

On the assumption that music is a business and that we have a few factors, like "marketability" or some such, then where do we fit in, the punters? There's the chicken and egg issue - music industry puts forward a male bias because the punters have more of a preference for male bands, or is that we prefer male bands because that's all we're fed? Methinks the industry is old enough now and channels and measurement good enough that I'm thinking the root cause is us - we prefer male bands, so we're getting more of what we like.

Be interested to hear from anyone in the industry to learn more.

I've mentioned this in the past regarding Oasis. I anecdotally think its the industry feeding us what they think they know we want. I remember back in the day being bombarded with Oasis being the next big thing, their big Gallagher mushes in just about every music magazine cover and then picked up by newspapers. This was before a single note had been released. If that's not industry stacked to push something then I don't know what is. 

As @Keithy mentioned previously, we went to see Dua Lipa, she busted her chops for her break. Remember her being interviewed and she had to hit the pavement going to every rep giving her tapes and got dismissed cos she was a model and obviously couldn't be a talented singer songwriter as well. She put the work in and got picked up eventually. 

I know which one I would prefer to go and see based on talent and it ain't the big hairy wingebags. 

[Bradders]

13 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Ah, that makes a lot of sense.

Frankly it’s about time other men started telling them to dress appropriately if they want to be taken seriously as proper artists.

[Quark]

26 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Don't you see the hypcocracy of it all? How can we have equality when ppl make negavtive observations based on colour?

My tuppence worth...

The gammon thing for me started out as a very specific observation, and was related as much to a political and social position that had a very strong correlation to a certain kind of person. I had no issue with that.

It's since become more widely used, on a broader spectrum , and often in tandem with white guys on guitars. In that context I'm becoming less comfortable with it.

[CaledonianGonzo]

Love to object to some racism that I've imagined by beng racist myself.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, Bradders said:

Frankly it’s about time other men started telling them to dress appropriately if they want to be taken seriously as proper artists.

Nah, men are as shit at calling it out as women are. 

As you've just proven.  

[CaledonianGonzo]

8 minutes ago, Quark said:

My tuppence worth...

The gammon thing for me started out as a very specific observation, and was related as much to a political and social position that had a very strong correlation to a certain kind of person. I had no issue with that.

It's since become more widely used, on a broader spectrum , and often in tandem with white guys on guitars. In that context I'm becoming less comfortable with it.

In this instance it's specifically in reference to an old-guard of reactionary golf-playing festival promoters.

[clarkete]

25 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Partly my bad, days late with the above comment!

Least of all you tbh, as your point was small and not contentious  

If the meganonsense is starting again I'll keep my head down.

[hfuhruhurr]

The gammon thing is interesting, there's a bit of me that really likes it - it's a little bit of 'hey, peeps who never on the receiving end of this, here's what it's like, we're going to bracket you with leave supporting nutters because of the way you look -  you're white, red-faced and overweight." So, although I have the appearance of a gammon (and avoid pineapples and fried eggs, don't get me started on HP sauce) now, I think I'm ok with it.

[mcshed]

56 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Yeah, totally agree. Asians aren't just yellow. They're cinnamon, mustard, banana, butter.

It's what I think of when I see Janet Jackson being angry. Why does she have to be such a Mocha Swirl?

Don't you see the hypcocracy of it all? How can we have equality when ppl make negavtive observations based on colour?

Do you understand why racism is bad? It is not because you are pointing out the fact that people's skins are a different colour?