Bob Vylan Chants

[Blisterpack]

1 minute ago, xxialac said:

 

And again, no one is disputing the absolute horror of the Nova and other attacks that day by Hamas.

And nobody seemed to be mentioning or remembering it at the weekend. 

[xxialac]

Just now, Blisterpack said:

And nobody seemed to be mentioning or remembering it at the weekend. 

Was it ongoing?

Is the Israeli state genocide of Gaza ongoing?

 

Can the international community effectively sanction a government or deprive them of armaments?

Can the international community effectively sanction Hamas?

 

There is your answer!!

 

 

[DeanoL]

19 minutes ago, xxialac said:

And you are being deliberately sly, trying to imply that our judiciary generally hands out harsher sentences to people sending hostile tweets than to those committing violence.

No I'm not.

I specifically said you're more likely to get caught online than actually committing violence. In the context of a point of civil unrest someone weighing up how best to express their outrage.

 

Stop thinking theoretically for a moment and look at practicalities. If you participate in a riot and take a minimum of precautions (face mask, gloves, don't walk directly home) then all you have to do to avoid arrest is leg it as soon as you see police. It's extremely hard to catch people if they do this. Especially if in a huge crowd. And especially in a riot situation where there's not going to be any real "motive" to track back on either.*

 

Now measure that against posting something online with your full name and picture attached. If the police choose to act, you've got nothing. You're dead to rights. The social media post is massively more risky.

 

*(If you ever get a chance it's fascinating to look into "getting away with murder" - essentially any law-enforcement person will tell you that with a minimum of caution - avoiding CCTV and leaving DNA at the scene - it's pretty easy to get away with killing a random person. But that's the problem. It has to be random. If there's nothing to connect you to that person you'll probably never even cross the police's radar.  But very few people want to kill a random person with no motive. It's why serial killers can often get away with it for a long period of time.)

[DeanoL]

29 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Watch the panorama episode from the Nova festival. Thousands of young people, similar to those at Glastonbury, praying for the IDF to arrive as Hamas roam the site looking for people to kill or kidnap. 

That pre-dates the current atrocities but also, even if it didn't, that doesn't contradict my point that *they would be wrong*. 

 

Israelis should not be defending the actions of the IDF right now just because they once did national service in it, have friends still in it, or have family doing national service in it. That's not a valid reason!

 

It's basically "I'm upset and offended by Bob Vylan calling for an end to this genocide because I have friends doing that genocide".

 

I do appreciate that someone standing on stage encouraging death to your friends and family in the IDF might well be quite confronting and disturbing, but I'd argue that's the point!

[DeanoL]

26 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

And nobody seemed to be mentioning or remembering it at the weekend. 

No one condemned the murder of Jo Cox on stage either at the weekend. Or the behaviour of Russell Brand. 

[xxialac]

5 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

No I'm not.

I specifically said you're more likely to get caught online than actually committing violence. In the context of a point of civil unrest someone weighing up how best to express their outrage.

 

Stop thinking theoretically for a moment and look at practicalities. If you participate in a riot and take a minimum of precautions (face mask, gloves, don't walk directly home) then all you have to do to avoid arrest is leg it as soon as you see police. It's extremely hard to catch people if they do this. Especially if in a huge crowd. And especially in a riot situation where there's not going to be any real "motive" to track back on either.*

 

Now measure that against posting something online with your full name and picture attached. If the police choose to act, you've got nothing. You're dead to rights. The social media post is massively more risky.

 

*(If you ever get a chance it's fascinating to look into "getting away with murder" - essentially any law-enforcement person will tell you that with a minimum of caution - avoiding CCTV and leaving DNA at the scene - it's pretty easy to get away with killing a random person. But that's the problem. It has to be random. If there's nothing to connect you to that person you'll probably never even cross the police's radar.  But very few people want to kill a random person with no motive. It's why serial killers can often get away with it for a long period of time.)

Fortunate that the UK is famous for having so little CCTV and police are also equally very well known for deploying the miminum resource when investigating (checks notes from OP) murders and national riots.

[xxialac]

I’m Irish and not one person held a vigil for the victims of the potato famine. Shameful.

[Blisterpack]

4 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

That pre-dates the current atrocities but also, even if it didn't, that doesn't contradict my point that *they would be wrong*. 

 

Israelis should not be defending the actions of the IDF right now just because they once did national service in it, have friends still in it, or have family doing national service in it. That's not a valid reason!

 

It's basically "I'm upset and offended by Bob Vylan calling for an end to this genocide because I have friends doing that genocide".

 

I do appreciate that someone standing on stage encouraging death to your friends and family in the IDF might well be quite confronting and disturbing, but I'd argue that's the point!

Objecting to the way the war is being waged by Netanyahu is something many Israelis do. That is totally different to calling for ‘death to the IDF’. That is a very personal thing for Israelis (half the world’s Jews) to listen to and absorb when it is coming from the most famous cultural event on the planet. 

[Tinofsild]

22 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

But don't you think you have a moral duty to conscientiously object if as part of that service you are asked to commit atrocities? We long ago established that "just following orders" was not a valid excuse. 

 

Yes, lots of people's friends and family will be in the IDF because of national service. Maybe, as ridiculous as this sounds, they shouldn't be? Maybe if that poster's partner had been there it might have served as a wake-up call? A clear signal that they're on the wrong side of history. Or put another way, an "are we the baddies?" moment. That maybe they need to speak to those friends and family and figure out a way for them to safely desert before they end up involved in taking actions that will haunt them for the rest of their lives?

That was me before. I don’t want to go too deeply into something I don’t understand fully but I think it’s just part of life there. All of their family have done it, in equally testing times. It can be a step on their career path where someone such as my partner moves into a job for a multinational company using IT skills she initially learned in the Army. I believe they have a strong element of choice in what they do so don’t have to be on the ground either. I suspect that the media reporting there will also have an element of bias to it too so the perspective on events of a citizen may differ from elsewhere.

 

For my post before I was just offering our perspective on things said. I have a few issues with that as said before but do think there are far bigger problems out there and hope it improves soon. 

[concerned]

6 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

That pre-dates the current atrocities but also, even if it didn't, that doesn't contradict my point that *they would be wrong*. 

 

Israelis should not be defending the actions of the IDF right now just because they once did national service in it, have friends still in it, or have family doing national service in it. That's not a valid reason!

 

It's basically "I'm upset and offended by Bob Vylan calling for an end to this genocide because I have friends doing that genocide".

 

I do appreciate that someone standing on stage encouraging death to your friends and family in the IDF might well be quite confronting and disturbing, but I'd argue that's the point!

I think the point they are trying to make is it isn't just a straight choice of conscientiously objecting to joining an organisation which are committing atrocities when that same organisation is the only thing keeping 2 other organisations on the borders at bay which have stated aims of wiping out the jewish population 

 

It's a pretty easy choice to make in say the Vietnam war, or the gulf wars (for western troops). This or the current conflict in Ukraine? Not so much... 

[xxialac]

10 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

when it is coming from the most famous cultural event on the planet. 

I’m leaving this debate. Can’t hack so much outlandish humour...

[Nathan Explosion]

Their performance at Radar Festival in Manchester this Saturday just got cancelled. The ridiculously OTT fallout continues.

[lazyred]

12 hours ago, DeanoL said:

Do you honestly think by the time this ends there will be anything left of Gaza? There barely is now. The Gazan people are basically gone as a group. What else do you call that?

 

(And please tell me the answer isn't some hair-splitting argument about how Gazans are not distinct from West Bank Palastinians)

The answer is in the definition. Genocide is decided by the intent not the end result of actions to achieve other aims. Before Oct 7 Israel was basically containing Gaza. After Oct 7 Hamas cannot be allowed to rule in Gaza. Hamas could have returned the hostages and stood down at any point since Oct 7. Instead they fought on embedded in tunnels, hospitals and other civilian areas.

Comments like Death to the IDF encourage Hamas to believe if they invite more destruction the west will abandon Isreal but they won't. How much of Gaza is destroyed is down to how long Hamas keep going.

 

[DeanoL]

29 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Objecting to the way the war is being waged by Netanyahu is something many Israelis do. That is totally different to calling for ‘death to the IDF’. That is a very personal thing for Israelis (half the world’s Jews) to listen to and absorb when it is coming from the most famous cultural event on the planet. 

I agree. It'd be a very personal and difficult thing to hear. But that doesn't make it wrong does it? Indeed, I'd argue it makes it even more important. 

[Skip997]

4 minutes ago, lazyred said:

How much of Gaza is destroyed is down to how long Hamas keep going.

 

Nonsense. 

[DeanoL]

23 minutes ago, Tinofsild said:

That was me before. I don’t want to go too deeply into something I don’t understand fully but I think it’s just part of life there. All of their family have done it, in equally testing times. It can be a step on their career path where someone such as my partner moves into a job for a multinational company using IT skills she initially learned in the Army. I believe they have a strong element of choice in what they do so don’t have to be on the ground either. I suspect that the media reporting there will also have an element of bias to it too so the perspective on events of a citizen may differ from elsewhere.

Absolutely. To be clear, I don't blame Israelis for joining up with the IDF and supporting it, if they've grown up there, been given a diet of Israeli propaganda their entire life, that it's been a part of their lives, that they've come to see it as a positive thing. I might think they should object, and not join. But I also understand that culturally they wouldn't be able to see that.

 

But might point is that if you take such a person out of that environment and put in them in say, a Bob Vylan set at Glasto, and they're made to feel extremely uncomfortable, hated even (but crucially *not* the victim of any actual violence) then *that is a good thing*. 

 

It's not wrong to make people feel uncomfortable over their beliefs if those beliefs are wrong. 

 

If people who support the IDF feel uncomfortable: good! And yes, maybe it's not how they want to be feeling on what should be a nice holiday at a festival, but frankly, tough sh*t. 

[DeanoL]

42 minutes ago, xxialac said:

Fortunate that the UK is famous for having so little CCTV and police are also equally very well known for deploying the miminum resource when investigating (checks notes from OP) murders and national riots.

And honestly I'm astounded that the back-office police spent time on checking social media posts when it could instead of been spent comprehensively analysing more of that CCTV but that's what happened.

[Skip997]

I’ll say it again for those either not listening, not understanding or wilfully being awkward. 
 

Bobby meant an end to the IDF, not killing them. 
 

That’s me out 

[DeanoL]

8 minutes ago, lazyred said:

The answer is in the definition. Genocide is decided by the intent not the end result of actions to achieve other aims. Before Oct 7 Israel was basically containing Gaza. After Oct 7 Hamas cannot be allowed to rule in Gaza.

 

Okay. And how do you identify Hamas? They're not an army, they don't wear uniforms. So if you want to invade Gaza and take out Hamas, there's only one way to actually be sure you've done that, and that is to kill every single person living there. Because any of them could be Hamas.

 

I'd argue that is genocidal intent, even by your definition.

[Crazyfool01]

13 minutes ago, lazyred said:

The answer is in the definition. Genocide is decided by the intent not the end result of actions to achieve other aims. Before Oct 7 Israel was basically containing Gaza. After Oct 7 Hamas cannot be allowed to rule in Gaza. Hamas could have returned the hostages and stood down at any point since Oct 7. Instead they fought on embedded in tunnels, hospitals and other civilian areas.

Comments like Death to the IDF encourage Hamas to believe if they invite more destruction the west will abandon Isreal but they won't. How much of Gaza is destroyed is down to how long Hamas keep going.

 

if the Israeli govt was intent on the return of the hostages there would be an ongoing  ceasefire as that has resulted in the return of the hostages that has happenned already , they are flattening areas where hostages potentially are being kept and have likely killed some in the process 

[xxialac]

4 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

I’ll say it again for those either not listening, not understanding or wilfully being awkward. 
 

Bobby meant an end to the IDF, not killing them. 
 

That’s me out 

Exactly.

 

It is not even possible for that audience to kill an army in a foreign land - proof that it was a metaphor.

 

Maybe Connolly meant "set fire to all the f---- hotels full of [asylum seekers]" as a metaphor too but it was at a time when people were seeking to damage those hotels. And indeed they tried to set one on fire a few days later. She got the lowest end of the sentencing guidelines so was treated very kindly within the legal parameters.

 

Also firmly, firmly out. 

 

Sick of a couple of posters desperately tying themselves up in knots trying to justify a genocide against innocent civilians including children.
 

 

 

[steviewevie]

Shame, genuinely thought the middle east was going to get resolved in this thread.

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

Shame, genuinely thought the middle east was going to get resolved in this thread.

It’s a discussion forum as you well know . Not seen a single person claim they will resolve it . Just discussion about it 

[The_Fish]

21 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

I’ll say it again for those either not listening, not understanding or wilfully being awkward. 
 

Bobby meant an end to the IDF, not killing them. 
 

That’s me out 

 

What happens to the Jews in israel if there is no IDF?

[danbailey80]

For a lot of people I've discussed It with, they simply wish he'd said something like 'Stop' or 'f**k the IDF'. not 'Kill'. This is their only issue and. they def hate the IDF. They know it's not anti jew. It's just the whole 'killing' thing.

 

This would likely be the problem the Eavis' had being pacifists etc. 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2025 by danbailey80