Kneecap

[CaledonianGonzo]

40 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

I wish people would learn what the word genocide means. 

 

Hamas wants to kill all Jews and remove them from the area = this is intent for genocide.

 

Israel wants to remove Hamas = not genocide, because Hamas is just a political movement.

 

Kneecap have been total fools in their thirst for trying to be relevant or antiestabilishment. Siding with terrorist groups shouldn't be described as artistic and calling for the death of Tory MPs should be condemned, not held up as a bastion of free speech. Free speech ends when there's a call to arms.

 

No one would want a White Power band rocking up and singing in support of the KKK and/or telling a crowd to kill "all hippies/blacks/democrats".

 

And people on here saying, "It was just a joke, just a silly out of context joke"... well, that's just the Jeremy Clarkson excuse. Inexcusable.

 

 

Two million people are on the brink of starvation as no food aid has entered Gaza for months and Israel are bombing aid flotillas in the Med.

[SheffJeff]

1 hour ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

I wish people would learn what the word genocide means. 

 

'Genocidal acts described by experts and human rights organizations include large-scale killing, use of starvation as a weapon of war, destruction of civilian infrastructure, attacks on healthcare workers, and forced displacement'

 

Which of these things do you think aren't happening in Gaza at the moment?

[Alvoram]

1 hour ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

I wish people would learn what the word genocide means. 

 

Hamas wants to kill all Jews and remove them from the area = this is intent for genocide.

 

Israel wants to remove Hamas = not genocide, because Hamas is just a political movement.

 

Kneecap have been total fools in their thirst for trying to be relevant or antiestabilishment. Siding with terrorist groups shouldn't be described as artistic and calling for the death of Tory MPs should be condemned, not held up as a bastion of free speech. Free speech ends when there's a call to arms.

 

No one would want a White Power band rocking up and singing in support of the KKK and/or telling a crowd to kill "all hippies/blacks/democrats".

 

And people on here saying, "It was just a joke, just a silly out of context joke"... well, that's just the Jeremy Clarkson excuse. Inexcusable.

 

You literally have that the wrong way around. Israel wants to claim the land, by any means possible, including by genocide, and removing all palestinians... Putting the current military action aside, this has long been the very well known goal, it was no secret... Nothing has changed.

You should watch https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m002bm1y/louis-theroux-the-settlers

Edited May 3, 2025 by Alvoram

[CaledonianGonzo]

I mean, you really couldn't ask for a more clear cut example of the pro-Israel side just saying any old thing.

 

Anyone who's looked at the issue for more than about two minutes knows the claim that "Hamas want to kill all the jews" is utter bobbins, yet here it is being rolled out like its an undisputed fact.

 

 

[Levitz]

2 hours ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

I wish people would learn what the word genocide means. 

 

Hamas wants to kill all Jews and remove them from the area = this is intent for genocide.

 

Israel wants to remove Hamas = not genocide, because Hamas is just a political movement.

 

Kneecap have been total fools in their thirst for trying to be relevant or antiestabilishment. Siding with terrorist groups shouldn't be described as artistic and calling for the death of Tory MPs should be condemned, not held up as a bastion of free speech. Free speech ends when there's a call to arms.

 

No one would want a White Power band rocking up and singing in support of the KKK and/or telling a crowd to kill "all hippies/blacks/democrats".

 

And people on here saying, "It was just a joke, just a silly out of context joke"... well, that's just the Jeremy Clarkson excuse. Inexcusable.

 

Literal genocide scholars, including Jewish scholars,  have said what Israel is doing is genocide. But Megatronicmeatwagon knows better. 

[danmarks]

29 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

I mean, you really couldn't ask for a more clear cut example of the pro-Israel side just saying any old thing.

 

Anyone who's looked at the issue for more than about two minutes knows the claim that "Hamas want to kill all the jews" is utter bobbins, yet here it is being rolled out like its an undisputed fact.

 

 

Ok. What is hamas's final aim? 

Explain it to me in simple words- I know this sounds like I'm having a pop- I'm not- I genuinely want to know how people view things.  If you google stuff as always you can find massively contrasting statements which all purport to be true so it's a genuine question.

As someone old enough to remember the 'troubles' being on john cravens newsround and just being sort of background to life I understand that there are no clear cut right and wrong sides in a massively complicated situation- there are obviously actions that are inherently wrong on both sides .

 

[TheDayman]

If we’re going to claim Hamas are the genocidal ones, it was quite the bold move for Netanyahu to allow billions in Qatari cash be escorted into Gaza in suitcases via. Israel over the years…. 
 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
 
And while we’re talking about the impact of words, here are a few from Bezalel Smotrich, Israeli Finance Minister, in 2015: 

 

“The Palestinian Authority is a burden, Hamas is an asset.”.

[TheDayman]

13 minutes ago, danmarks said:

Ok. What is hamas's final aim? 

Explain it to me in simple words- I know this sounds like I'm having a pop- I'm not- I genuinely want to know how people view things.  If you google stuff as always you can find massively contrasting statements which all purport to be true so it's a genuine question.

As someone old enough to remember the 'troubles' being on john cravens newsround and just being sort of background to life I understand that there are no clear cut right and wrong sides in a massively complicated situation- there are obviously actions that are inherently wrong on both sides .

 

We’re veering into “you support Hamas” territory now, which misses the point.

 

No one here has said they support Hamas, we’re simply recognising that groups like Hamas don’t emerge in a vacuum.

 

To put some perspective on it: since Hamas took control of Gaza in 2007, Israel has killed over 6,400 Palestinians in Gaza (prior to October 2023) and nearly 2,000 in the West Bank. In that same period, Hamas (and other Palestinian militant groups) have killed around 300–400 Israelis.

 

Now please don’t misconstrue that as an excuse for violence, but it’s important to understand the power imbalance in the context of occupation, and why some see these slogans (“destroy Israel”, et. al) as symbols of resistance  rather than literal endorsements.

[CaledonianGonzo]

16 minutes ago, danmarks said:

Ok. What is hamas's final aim? 

Explain it to me in simple words- I know this sounds like I'm having a pop- I'm not- I genuinely want to know how people view things.  If you google stuff as always you can find massively contrasting statements which all purport to be true so it's a genuine question.

As someone old enough to remember the 'troubles' being on john cravens newsround and just being sort of background to life I understand that there are no clear cut right and wrong sides in a massively complicated situation- there are obviously actions that are inherently wrong on both sides .

 

 

Their 2017 charter isn't a long document, but the Wikipedia page for it summarises it.

 

Meanwhile, I do find the 'both sides do bad things' perspective a massive false equivalence when one side is exterminating the other.

[danmarks]

Both sides do bad things 1) is an oversimplification of what I was trying to say and 2) was about all conflicts nor just this one. 

Also 3)  one side is exterminating the other does not equate to being ok killing 1200 at a festival and taking hostages. You can't start quoting numbers and say im not as bad as you as I've killed less.

Killing is killing. 

Thanks for answering and yes I've already read the charter and also found other bits online that supposedly are also the charter about the total extermination of Israel. 

Not sure why I feel I need to defend myself but sometimes things can come over as sanctimonious - as always a real conversation will have all sorts if nuance around it but screens don't.

Back on topic. Should kneecap be cancelled. Of course not .

Should people be accountable for what they say.

Yes

[TheDayman]

15 minutes ago, danmarks said:

Back on topic. Should kneecap be cancelled. Of course not .

Should people be accountable for what they say.

Yes

100% Agree.

 

However the argument is that Kneecap are being held to higher moral standards than others.

 

And to also quote what you very correctly pointed out - 

 

15 minutes ago, danmarks said:

You can't start quoting numbers and say im not as bad as you as I've killed less.

Killing is killing. 

As the British Government pile on Kneecap for their words, it feels completely perplexing that these words appear to have prompted more action and moral outrage than the genocidal actions not just being carried out in Gaza, but being partly funded, by the very same British Government (via. continued military aid) so aghast by words.

 

Killing is killing. That should be everyones primary focus.

Edited May 3, 2025 by TheDayman

[Levitz]

28 minutes ago, danmarks said:

Both sides do bad things 1) is an oversimplification of what I was trying to say and 2) was about all conflicts nor just this one. 

Also 3)  one side is exterminating the other does not equate to being ok killing 1200 at a festival and taking hostages. You can't start quoting numbers and say im not as bad as you as I've killed less.

Killing is killing. 

Thanks for answering and yes I've already read the charter and also found other bits online that supposedly are also the charter about the total extermination of Israel. 

Not sure why I feel I need to defend myself but sometimes things can come over as sanctimonious - as always a real conversation will have all sorts if nuance around it but screens don't.

Back on topic. Should kneecap be cancelled. Of course not .

Should people be accountable for what they say.

Yes

They changed their manifesto in 2017, so any of those references are old and no longer part of the manifesto. 

 

The current Israeli government policy is (and has been prior to Oct 7) to permanently occupy Gaza and West Bank. Netanyahu presented a map claiming the whole area as Israel at the UN in September 2023. This is part of the Likud Party manifesto and has been since 1977.  

 

No one has said it was OK to murder the people at the festival  (or anyone including members of the IDF on October 7)-although it's worth noting that the Israeli's have admitted a number were killed by the IDF in their immediate response as they didn't know who were Palestinian and who were Israeli. 

 

But the Palestinians were driven out of their homes and made refugees by Israeli militias (who did put babies in ovens) and have been illegally occupied for 77 years. Israel has consistently violated international humanitarian law, arbitrarily killed and indefinitely detained Palestinians without charge or trial, tortured and raped prisoners to death, with nothing being done by the international community and the West defending and arming Israel at all costs. 

 

So, from your armchair in the UK, it's easy to think 'awful, murderous, terrorists', it's 'complicated', 'both sides are bad'.  But in context, one side are refugees, living in effectively an open air prison they cannot leave, without a standing army, with very little recourse to resist, the other side is a nuclear power backed to the hilt by the US defence industry. 

 

Resistance involves violence. The violence has escalated in line with the violence perpetrated by the occupier. Heinous acts were committed on Oct 7, but that ignores the thousands of murders by the Israeli goverment in the preceding years. 

 

Even Ehud Barak, a former Prime Minister of Israel, said in answer to 'what would he do if he were Palestinian' said he would join a terrorist group. 

[CaledonianGonzo]

Need a fire emoji added to the new reaction set.

[Watergirl]

Classic Waterford Whispers:

"“I see calls for this group Israel to be held to account as part of a wider sinister trend of trying to hold Hip Hop groups to a higher standard than governments like Kneecap,” explained one another Israel fan David Lammy.

 

https://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2025/05/02/calls-for-controversial-hip-hop-group-israel-to-apologise-for-murder-of-20000-children/

 

[Crazyfool01]

1 hour ago, Levitz said:

They changed their manifesto in 2017, so any of those references are old and no longer part of the manifesto. 

 

The current Israeli government policy is (and has been prior to Oct 7) to permanently occupy Gaza and West Bank. Netanyahu presented a map claiming the whole area as Israel at the UN in September 2023. This is part of the Likud Party manifesto and has been since 1977.  

 

No one has said it was OK to murder the people at the festival  (or anyone including members of the IDF on October 7)-although it's worth noting that the Israeli's have admitted a number were killed by the IDF in their immediate response as they didn't know who were Palestinian and who were Israeli. 

 

But the Palestinians were driven out of their homes and made refugees by Israeli militias (who did put babies in ovens) and have been illegally occupied for 77 years. Israel has consistently violated international humanitarian law, arbitrarily killed and indefinitely detained Palestinians without charge or trial, tortured and raped prisoners to death, with nothing being done by the international community and the West defending and arming Israel at all costs. 

 

So, from your armchair in the UK, it's easy to think 'awful, murderous, terrorists', it's 'complicated', 'both sides are bad'.  But in context, one side are refugees, living in effectively an open air prison they cannot leave, without a standing army, with very little recourse to resist, the other side is a nuclear power backed to the hilt by the US defence industry. 

 

Resistance involves violence. The violence has escalated in line with the violence perpetrated by the occupier. Heinous acts were committed on Oct 7, but that ignores the thousands of murders by the Israeli goverment in the preceding years. 

 

Even Ehud Barak, a former Prime Minister of Israel, said in answer to 'what would he do if he were Palestinian' said he would join a terrorist group. 

The next speaker on leftfield is … ⬆️

[efcfanwirral]

11 hours ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

 

You dont think there's a right and wrong side when discussing a genocide?

 

Wow.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm saying there are people on both sides who's perspective won't be changed because of propaganda on those sides. Not every post needs to be prefaced with condemnation. It wasn't a literal statement about right and wrong 

Edited May 3, 2025 by efcfanwirral

[TheDayman]

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/kneecap-glastonbury-music-b1225553.html
 

Having recently toured the US with Kneecap, Laurie Vincent of UK punk duo SOFT PLAY expresses the need to discern the difference.

 

“Kneecap have been careless with some of their wording in the past and that is something they are paying for hugely now. However they've apologised, and I am so tired of a world where forgiveness is so easily forgotten,” he tells us. “The energy of a moment has made people do stupid things since the dawn of time. We simply have all f**ked up. It's inevitable. However the real issue is the one of bombs dropping on innocent children's heads: the issue that is being obscured even more from view as the media decides to focus all of its attention on Kneecap instead.”

 

A good summary, I feel.

[JoshM87]

As someone who vehemently dislikes the Conservative Party it would take a fair bit to trigger me especially given I’ve been in countless Liverpool away ends singing various songs about Thatcher.

 

That said, telling people to kill your MP is f**king stupid, especially given the fact that someone literally did just that not that long ago. Not surprising that they’re getting sh*t for it and a shame as it undermines the very legitimate points which they otherwise make.

[clarkete]

1 hour ago, JoshM87 said:

That said, telling people to kill your MP is f**king stupid, especially given the fact that someone literally did just that not that long ago. Not surprising that they’re getting sh*t for it and a shame as it undermines the very legitimate points which they otherwise make.

 

Still getting sh*t for it repeatedly after Coachella, even though few if any mentions for 1 1/2 years after the actual event? 

Edited May 3, 2025 by clarkete

[steviewevie]

I don't know about Hamas being genocidal...everyone throws this word around now that it is becoming meaningless. But they are definitely c**ts. They knew who was in the Israeli government when they went in and killed and took ravers and familes, they knew that the attack would provoke a mad reaction from a government full of extremists...I guess they hoped it would trigger a bigger reaction from Iran proxies etc which has definitely backfired and now Iran looks a lot weaker and I expect pretty f**ked off with Hamas, and maybe also hoping there would be a big anti Israel global reaction which there definitely has been so well done I guess...but as the carnage and war crimes escalated and the people of Gaza and their homes and lives have got destroyed, they just hid down in their tunnels with and waited so they could make a deal to get some Palestinian prisoners released or whatever. So, f**k the Israeli government, and at same time f**k Hamas. A two state solution could have been possible under different governments and regimes and international pressure and help....but they've f**ked it, and I really don't know where it's going to end up. Any possible solution is not going to come from Kneecap who are just milking it, it will come from what deals US does with Saudi, Israel and Iran.

[JoshM87]

7 minutes ago, clarkete said:

 

Still getting sh*t for it repeatedly after Coachella, even though few if any mentions for 1 1/2 years after the actual event? 

it’s not really the point though.

 

People as individuals have a responsibility to not share messages which endanger others. Saying ‘kill your local MP’ is an invitation for some lunatic to go and do it, which actually happened relatively recently.

 

 

 

[CaledonianGonzo]

14 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I don't know about Hamas being genocidal...everyone throws this word around now that it is becoming meaningless.

 

It's definitely got a meaning steviewevie

[steviewevie]

13 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

 

It's definitely got a meaning steviewevie

but it can be interpreted endlessly by lawyers and politicians and activists. I think since the word was created there have only been officially 4 events classed as genocide...whereas many people will argue there have been many more, and many others will argue that these don't count and the word was invented to describe the holocaust. So everyone keeps screaming genocide at each other as we've seen on here, Israel is carrying out genocide, Hamas are genocidal...and both are probably true, but both will be argued against in a court. It's all about intent.

So one day Israel may be found guilty of committing genocide, I think really quite possible...but while it might feel good to chuck that word at them for historical reasons...maybe it's simpler to say they are definitely, provenly committing ongoing war crimes, crimes against humanity and ethnic cleansing...because they really are, and this is where there needs to be an intervention and where UN needs to find some teeth to do something, instead of endlessly arguing whether it's genocide in order to score some points.

Edited May 3, 2025 by steviewevie

[Levitz]

29 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I don't know about Hamas being genocidal...everyone throws this word around now that it is becoming meaningless. But they are definitely c**ts. They knew who was in the Israeli government when they went in and killed and took ravers and familes, they knew that the attack would provoke a mad reaction from a government full of extremists...I guess they hoped it would trigger a bigger reaction from Iran proxies etc which has definitely backfired and now Iran looks a lot weaker and I expect pretty f**ked off with Hamas, and maybe also hoping there would be a big anti Israel global reaction which there definitely has been so well done I guess...but as the carnage and war crimes escalated and the people of Gaza and their homes and lives have got destroyed, they just hid down in their tunnels with and waited so they could make a deal to get some Palestinian prisoners released or whatever. So, f**k the Israeli government, and at same time f**k Hamas. A two state solution could have been possible under different governments and regimes and international pressure and help....but they've f**ked it, and I really don't know where it's going to end up. Any possible solution is not going to come from Kneecap who are just milking it, it will come from what deals US does with Saudi, Israel and Iran.

Sinwar died fighting, not far from an IDF tank post. The Israelis even released a video. 

[CaledonianGonzo]

Floating in cross-legged from the sky on a silver cloud to Kigali in 1994 to remind the Tutsis that both sides are capable of swallowing propaganda and going too far in their language.