Emily vs. The Gammons

[CaledonianGonzo]

This is all mere anecdotal evidence though. 

If you can deal with his funny voice, watch this link to an hour-long video of a seminar where an *actual philosophy professor* just destroys feminism.  

https://youtu.be/EjIfrhSQ8Pk

 

[Quark]

26 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

You think the plural of Gammon is Gammon?

Ok. I respect that.

Gammon

Gammas

Gammat

Gammus

[eFestivals]

Just now, Quark said:

Gammon

Gammas

Gammat

Gammus

Gammi

[Zoo Music Girl]

On BBC this morning:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47822291

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

On BBC this morning:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47822291

I've see some firms complaining that their figures are skewed because they have few male staff and lots of women.

Erm ... doesn't that rather give away that men are being appointed to the best-paid jobs?  

[Zoo Music Girl]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

I've see some firms complaining that their figures are skewed because they have few male staff and lots of women.

Erm ... doesn't that rather give away that men are being appointed to the best-paid jobs?  

Absolutely. But that's because women want to be paid less of course.

[Mr.Tease]

7 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Absolutely. But that's because women want to be paid less of course.

And also because they're not very good at asking for more money ? (wasn't that one business man's justification last year?)

[CaledonianGonzo]

28 minutes ago, Quark said:

Gammon

Gammas

Gammat

Gammus

GAMMONES EUNT DOMUS!

[Quark]

1 minute ago, Mr.Tease said:

And also because they're not very good at asking for more money ? (wasn't that one business man's justification last year?)

Joking aside, that much is true.  The factors behind that reluctance to push for a higher salary, particularly when first applying for a role, are another matter altogether, but women are (based on the research Mrs Q was doing when looking for new roles) far more likely to accept an offered salary than to dig their heels in and push for the higher end of the advertised pay scale.

The other part to that is that women tend (and I can't pretend to point anyone to a particular study or link for this) to look at the requirements for a role and focus on the criteria they don't meet, and as a result are less likely to apply.  Men on the other hand are more likely to think "well I've got 90% of their criteria so I'll have a crack and wing the rest" and apply anyway.

Again, the factors behind these decision processes are part of the much bigger argument.

[Quark]

3 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

GAMMONES EUNT DOMUS!

I was trying so hard not to go there

[Zoo Music Girl]

4 minutes ago, Quark said:

Joking aside, that much is true.  The factors behind that reluctance to push for a higher salary, particularly when first applying for a role, are another matter altogether, but women are (based on the research Mrs Q was doing when looking for new roles) far more likely to accept an offered salary than to dig their heels in and push for the higher end of the advertised pay scale.

The other part to that is that women tend (and I can't pretend to point anyone to a particular study or link for this) to look at the requirements for a role and focus on the criteria they don't meet, and as a result are less likely to apply.  Men on the other hand are more likely to think "well I've got 90% of their criteria so I'll have a crack and wing the rest" and apply anyway.

Again, the factors behind these decision processes are part of the much bigger argument.

Yeah I think this is very often the case and again the reasons why are influenced by multiple factors.

[eFestivals]

Just now, Zoo Music Girl said:

Yeah I think this is very often the case and again the reasons why are influenced by multiple factors.

one of things which I think gives men that greater pay is the old sexist idea of the man being the breadwinner - and to be fair, it's most often the man who is that where his partner might have stopped working because of children.

That's a difficult one to address.

[hfuhruhurr]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

one of things which I think gives men that greater pay is the old sexist idea of the man being the breadwinner - and to be fair, it's most often the man who is that where his partner might have stopped working because of children.

That's a difficult one to address.

It's incredibly tough but absolutely the thing to address and embrace - it's core to all manner of freedoms.

[gigpusher]

9 hours ago, MetaKate said:

I have personal experience. Graduated with a 4.0 as a web dev. Started my job with 1 guy above me, had been working there for 3 years and started there with no experience 3 years prior, same as me. Found out he was making 6k more than me when he started. I asked for a raise they said no. Now, 1.5yrs later, he has quit, i'm in his position and making 12k less that he was. I did get a very small raise when he left and now i'm essentially doing his job and my job. I know that in another 1.5yrs time when we would have had an equal amount of experience they wont be paying me what they were paying him. P

I find it infuriating but I'm looking for a new job now bc of this BS.. but who says i'll find something that pays me equally?

The good news for you is that with gender gap reporting tech companies are starting to panic at how bad it is. If you are already well qualified then you will be in a good position as companies are crying out for females to put into high positions so that they can address their gender pay gap. You just need to be bold when you ask for your next salary and go about 5-10k over what you think. 

I know this as up until Christmas I worked at a Dev company and every male in a senior position that left they were very obviously trying to replace with a woman. This was of course to try and address the gender gap because not one member of the board was female apart from the daughter of the person who owned the company. 

[SwedgeAntilles]

[gigpusher]

26 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

one of things which I think gives men that greater pay is the old sexist idea of the man being the breadwinner - and to be fair, it's most often the man who is that where his partner might have stopped working because of children.

That's a difficult one to address.

It is because societal pressures tend to fall on the woman. At my old company 2 Senior Developers got married and shortly after she was pregnant. I asked one day were they going to share the paternity leave which you can do and it was obvious it had never been considered even. They both were at the same level doing the same job. 

Afterwards the guy said to me privately that he thought continuing to go to work was the easier option. I wonder if many people ever discuss this and whether there are many women who would really like to be able to do this but feel like even saying it out loud would make them appear to be a bad mother and it is those attitudes that need to change because mother focused childcare in the early days tends to lead to it throughout the child's whole life. When they are sick they want the primary care giver. 

 

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, gigpusher said:

It is because societal pressures tend to fall on the woman. At my old company 2 Senior Developers got married and shortly after she was pregnant. I asked one day were they going to share the paternity leave which you can do and it was obvious it had never been considered even. They both were at the same level doing the same job. 

Afterwards the guy said to me privately that he thought continuing to go to work was the easier option. I wonder if many people ever discuss this and whether there are many women who would really like to be able to do this but feel like even saying it out loud would make them appear to be a bad mother and it is those attitudes that need to change because mother focused childcare in the early days tends to lead to it throughout the child's whole life. When they are sick they want the primary care giver. 

 

my comment wasn't so much about maternity absence, but where the woman stops working entirely.

Everything about that as things are currently creates a pressure on the man to provide and an expectation on the employer to enable it with adequate wages.

I'm all for mothers being able to be full-time mothers if that's what they want, and yet that idea helps perpetuate the pay gap which I don't want - because no one is really saying tough shit, that mother has to work*. Instead of there being that expectation on the mother having to work, there's an expectation** on the employer to pay the man good enough wages so it can happen.

(* just to be clear, i'm well aware that plenty do have to work).

(** I'm not suggesting it always happens, see * just above)

[hfuhruhurr]

6 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

I wonder if many people ever discuss this

we did. We agreed that with all the emotions associated with becoming parents and especially becoming a Mum, we laid out  contingency plans  from going back early through to full-on stay at home Mum. And, you really can't tell, there are some basic primal forces at play and, call me an old fashioned git, but I honestly think it is a man's duty to give his partner the freedom to decide on whether a long career break or not. We worked towards that from first getting married - I had to get myself into a "provider" position so that my wife had the freedom to choose. In the end, she did the full on Mum thing for the first 3 years/child and then I gave up my corporate role for a work-from-home job so she could re-start her career and there would still be someone at home.

[Quark]

So Mrs Q is clearly ahead of me on the payscale in our house and has been for some time.  We've no plans for / don't particularly want kids, but we both know that if we did, I'd be the one staying at home. Which is fine.

The amazing bit is how many times over the years I've been asked how I feel about her being in the driving seat.  I don't know how many different ways there of saying "I really don't give a shit".  Ditto with her on the having kids thing.  And the really interesting bit about the kids part is that it's 99% women that have that expectation of her.

It's really interesting to me, because it's a very difficult path of questioning to navigate (as we've seen on here!) but it really is intriguing how much of that is society and how much is just nature.

I've got no interest in how cars work. People on the other hand, ah now...

[Losing my hair]

To add to the debate

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/05/gender-pay-gap-figures-debunking-the-myths

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, Losing my hair said:

To add to the debate

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/05/gender-pay-gap-figures-debunking-the-myths

Thanks. Worth quoting some of it directly here, I reckon.

The most extreme myth is that gender pay gap is a lie perpetuated by feminists who use statistics dishonestly to further their cause.

This is a view shared by a small but vocal coalition of rightwing think tanks, Jordan Peterson, and men’s rights activists.

Writing in the Spectator, Kate Andrews, the associate director of the Institute of Economic Affairs, said women are “bombarded with inflated statistics, cherry-picked and designed to make them feel helpless”.

It’s fair to point out the flaws in the statistics. The median gap is calculated by lining up all men’s and women’s wages from top to bottom, and comparing the number that falls in the middle for each gender. As with all averages, it smooths out nuances and doesn’t account for differences in specific job roles, age, or previous experience.

But the figures are an important indicator of structural inequality. The data shows eight in 10 companies pay male employees more, and some companies pay the men twice as much as women on average. The median gap is a blunt tool, but a powerful one. To understand why the pay gap exists we need more data with more detail.

[gigpusher]

1 minute ago, Quark said:

The amazing bit is how many times over the years I've been asked how I feel about her being in the driving seat.  I don't know how many different ways there of saying "I really don't give a shit".  Ditto with her on the having kids thing.  And the really interesting bit about the kids part is that it's 99% women that have that expectation of her.

 

Oh absolutely this. Society has made all of us sexist and women can be as sexist as men hence my comment about women who would rather go back to work feel they can't for fear of being considered a bad mother. The most sexist person I have to deal with in my life is my mother-in-law. 

I remember watching a you tube clip by Panti Bliss about how we are all sexist, racist and homophobic but that some of us try to be better because we know we are. I think it's very true. 

[Quark]

2 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

I remember watching a you tube clip by Panti Bliss about how we are all sexist, racist and homophobic but that some of us try to be better because we know we are. I think it's very true. 

Aye, have had a similar conversation with parents, along the lines of you can't help what you feel in response to something because that's an emotional response that is pretty much outside of your control.  What you do have full control over is your words and actions that you choose to put in place outside of your emotional reaction.

[Zoo Music Girl]

Another thing to consider on the mothers working/not working front is that childcare is often so prohibitively expensive that is not worth the woman returning to work. I have one friend who eventually gave up work because she was spending all of her wage on childcare so it made more sense to not work at all and live off the husband's wage. They just about manage.  

[mcshed]

I'm just about at the end of my second 6 months of shared parental leave and I've loved it, I tell every expectant parent how good it is not just for the dad's relationship with the kids but for you both to know hard it is being stuck with the kids all the time/coming home from work and being expected to immediately provide relief for the other parent. 

Lots of parents don't know about it, I've had to explain to my work, both times despite it only being 2 years apart. In fact the second time I was confronted with the out of date additional paternity policy that predated my first time off.

I know that not every mum wants to share their leave but I really wish it was more wide spread.