Emily vs. The Gammons

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

I was introduced to different pastimes and interests and followed the ones I liked. 

but what you were introduced to was influenced by the sexism within society, and what made you like some particular things was influenced by the sexism within society.

And as a bloke, the world is your oyster. The same is not true with the influences upon females.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

Just now, eFestivals said:

different people have different experiences and get different things from those experiences. 

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the experience of women is not the same as it is for men, because both are influenced by the misogyny that governs all of society.

It's no coincidence that the jobs that were traditionally "womens work" are and remain some of the lowest paid in society, and even today society nudges women towards those lower-paid 'traditional' jobs.

There are of course exceptions that buck the trend, but that doesn't mean there isn't still that trend.

I'm definitely not saying there aren't mysoginists out there who think of women doing women work, but I don't think mysoginists governs all society. We have a the Queen, May, Nic Sturgeon and Cressida Dick in charge. That's pretty good, but I bet they all played with dolls when they were younger and wore pink etc.

I guess that's where we differ, how much of that affects freedom of choice when you're older.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

but what you were introduced to was influenced by the sexism within society, and what made you like some particular things was influenced by the sexism within society.

And as a bloke, the world is your oyster. The same is not true with the influences upon females.

But I was also introduced to "traditionally" womens work. Cooking, sewing, knitting, etc. Now if my socks break, I darn them because my grandmother taught me how. It wasn't just an constant slugdge of "manly activities".

I would agree that it's harder for women to go jogging late at night in some places - and that's horrible there are places like that in the UK and abroad, but again, I was really just talking about women and university and the subjects they choose. And in relation to that and the present day, women going to university - the world is their oyster too.

[eFestivals]

Just now, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

We have a the Queen, May, Nic Sturgeon and Cressida Dick in charge.

The Queen doesn't count, it's a role she inherited ... but a role still with misogynistic laws attached to it (tho most have now been removed).

The others are exceptions and not the rule.  

And May is just the 2nd women to be PM, and Dick the 1st woman to run the met. They've had to fight sexism all thru their working lives to reach those positions.
(I've excluded Sturgeon only because it's a new role with no meaningful history).

If there wasn't sexism they were having to overcome, women in these roles would be the norm and not the exceptions.

Things have improved loads in recent times, it's why those women could reach those positions. But because some token women have been able to reach those positions it doesn't mean everything is now sorted.

[Kay95]

6 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

We have a the Queen, May, Nic Sturgeon and Cressida Dick in charge. That's pretty good, but I bet they all played with dolls when they were younger and wore pink etc.
 

Besides the fact the queen is the queen because all the possible men in line before her were dead... (the rule that boys go first has only just been changed) and would have become queen regardless of the toys she played with.... you have basically given a bunch of examples that are the exception rather than the norm.

Also recommend you listen to the recent desert island discs to discover how unusual Cressida Dick's upbringing was... she basically went to a Boys' school.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

The Queen doesn't count, it's a role she inherited ... but a role still with misogynistic laws attached to it (tho most have now been removed).

The others are exceptions and not the rule.  

And May is just the 2nd women to be PM, and Dick the 1st woman to run the met. They've had to fight sexism all thru their working lives to reach those positions.
(I've excluded Sturgeon only because it's a new role with no meaningful history).

If there wasn't sexism they were having to overcome, women in these roles would be the norm and not the exceptions.

Things have improved loads in recent times, it's why those women could reach those positions. But because some token women have been able to reach those positions it doesn't mean everything is now sorted.

Yeah, I bet they've probably encountered plenty of idiots with stupid comments, and I'm most def not defending that. But as far as women going to uni, they're not outliers or exceptions - they're the majority - and they still choose their subjects freely.

Politicis has been historically dominated by men, but there's been plenty of female politicians, 29% in the last election were elected. That's not bad and I'm sure in the future it'll go up and down, depending on how many choose to do it in any given generation. They're not all exceptions are they?~

Why is it 60% of women go to university but only 30% move into politics? I just think it's because they choose not to do that, because they choose other interests. Perhaps it changes in the future, perhaps not, but they all have freewill to choose that.

[Zoo Music Girl]

1 minute ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Yeah, I bet they've probably encountered plenty of idiots with stupid comments, and I'm most def not defending that. But as far as women going to uni, they're not outliers or exceptions - they're the majority - and they still choose their subjects freely.

Politicis has been historically dominated by men, but there's been plenty of female politicians, 29% in the last election were elected. That's not bad and I'm sure in the future it'll go up and down, depending on how many choose to do it in any given generation. They're not all exceptions are they?~

Why is it 60% of women go to university but only 30% move into politics? I just think it's because they choose not to do that, because they choose other interests. Perhaps it changes in the future, perhaps not, but they all have freewill to choose that.

Why do you think they might be put off? By what they see in the Commons and the House of Lords, for example, an old boys' network that is not massively welcoming. Or the fact that 70% of MPs are still male, so it still feels like more of a man's job. That will hopefully change over time, but it will take a while and we are definitely not there yet. 

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

Just now, Kay95 said:

Besides the fact the queen is the queen because all the possible men in line before her were dead... (the rule that boys go first has only just been changed) and would have become queen regardless of the toys she played with.... you have basically given a bunch of examples that are the exception rather than the norm.

Also recommend you listen to the recent desert island discs to discover how unusual Cressida Dick's upbringing was... she basically went to a Boys' school.

29% of elected MPs are women. So, not exceptions then, that's quite a sizeable amount. Exceptions would be far far lower.

The Queen was just an example of women in power - hardly the mysoginistic world many would have you believe is it?

I don't know much about Cressida Dick's upbringing either, but was another example of women in powerful positions in the UK. Plus besides, women in the police force is pretty good too - so hardly an exception either. " In March 2017, the percentage of female officers was 29.1% in England and Wales, 29% in Scotland and 28.5% in Northern Ireland. In England and Wales, women made up a 61% majority of non-sworn police staff (likewise in Northern Ireland) and 45% of Police Community Support Officers." - taken from Wikipedia

[Zoo Music Girl]

1 minute ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

29% of elected MPs are women. So, not exceptions then, that's quite a sizeable amount. Exceptions would be far far lower.

The Queen was just an example of women in power - hardly the mysoginistic world many would have you believe is it?

I don't know much about Cressida Dick's upbringing either, but was another example of women in powerful positions in the UK. Plus besides, women in the police force is pretty good too - so hardly an exception either. " In March 2017, the percentage of female officers was 29.1% in England and Wales, 29% in Scotland and 28.5% in Northern Ireland. In England and Wales, women made up a 61% majority of non-sworn police staff (likewise in Northern Ireland) and 45% of Police Community Support Officers." - taken from Wikipedia

The Queen's role is basically ceremonial. What power does she exercise, really?

[hfuhruhurr]

@MEGATRONICMEATWAGON Probably worth researching and looking at women in computing. It's fascinating how a new-ish area once dominated by women has undergone a transformation in equality to now a male dominated area.

As a job, working "in computers" should fit every lifestyle, and yet the balance is broken. Read up about it, test your "everyone is free to do what they like" thesis on this test-case industry.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

Just now, Zoo Music Girl said:

The Queen's role is basically ceremonial. What power does she exercise, really?

Yeah, true, but that's a different matter altogether really. It was just an example of women in powerful positions.

[Zoo Music Girl]

Just now, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Yeah, true, but that's a different matter altogether really. It was just an example of women in powerful positions.

But that's exactly the point - it's not a powerful position.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

1 minute ago, hfuhruhurr said:

@MEGATRONICMEATWAGON Probably worth researching and looking at women in computing. It's fascinating how a new-ish area once dominated by women has undergone a transformation in equality to now a male dominated area.

As a job, working "in computers" should fit every lifestyle, and yet the balance is broken. Read up about it, test your "everyone is free to do what they like" thesis on this test-case industry.

Okay, I'll give it a look when I have a chance, thanks for the message. Just so I know, is it working with computers in a techincal sense or just working with computers in offices etc?

[Kay95]

Just now, Zoo Music Girl said:

But that's exactly the point - it's not a powerful position.

And she only has it because all male options were exhausted

[hfuhruhurr]

Just now, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Okay, I'll give it a look when I have a chance, thanks for the message. Just so I know, is it working with computers in a techincal sense or just working with computers in offices etc?

Programming

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

1 minute ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

But that's exactly the point - it's not a powerful position.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/06/the-most-powerful-women-in-the-world/queen-elizabeth-ii/
 

Some believe she's very powerful

[Zoo Music Girl]

Just now, Kay95 said:

And she only has it because all male options were exhausted

Exactly. Having a queen as a figurehead doesn't make the country she governs in any way progressive. We had a queen in the 16th century FFS.

[Zoo Music Girl]

4 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/06/the-most-powerful-women-in-the-world/queen-elizabeth-ii/
 

Some believe she's very powerful

Some might, but I don't. And I'm glad she doesn't - the monarchy is an anachronism.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

5 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Some might, but I don't. And I'm glad she doesn't - the monarchy is an anachronism.

I just find them a tourist attraction myself, albeit it a powerful one. As long as they remain as public figures and nothing more, the UK can rake in the billions and that's fine by me and good for the economoy. I'm sure they'll fade away one day

[eFestivals]

19 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

But as far as women going to uni, they're not outliers or exceptions - they're the majority - and they still choose their subjects freely.

they choose their subjects 'freely', while bearing in mind the discrimination they face in some roles.  

For the music biz, until recently there were far fewer women making a living from music, and those that were tended to be more background roles (backing singer, not lead singer - that sort of thing).

So there haven't been the role models in the same proportion as men to have women thinking "I could do that" in the same proportion as men. And so they "freely" chose to do something else they feel is better suited.

Jeeezus. Do you really think women have fully equal role models, encouragement, and opportunity?  

[Kay95]

12 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

29% of elected MPs are women. So, not exceptions then, that's quite a sizeable amount. Exceptions would be far far lower.

The Queen was just an example of women in power - hardly the mysoginistic world many would have you believe is it?

I don't know much about Cressida Dick's upbringing either, but was another example of women in powerful positions in the UK. Plus besides, women in the police force is pretty good too - so hardly an exception either. " In March 2017, the percentage of female officers was 29.1% in England and Wales, 29% in Scotland and 28.5% in Northern Ireland. In England and Wales, women made up a 61% majority of non-sworn police staff (likewise in Northern Ireland) and 45% of Police Community Support Officers." - taken from Wikipedia

You were talking about women at the top of the tree, not the general working population.  You suggested that Cressida Dick played with dolls and still ended up in charge of the Met.... she didn't, she was out of the ordinary, she went to a boys' school

your percentages in the police officer population are less than a third, so not parity. Its telling that you think these stats demonstrate that things are ok really.

"hardly the mysoginistic world many would have you believe is it?"  its not something I believe, its something I experience. Its something other women on this thread are telling you they experience.  perhaps you should listen

[eFestivals]

28 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Plus besides, women in the police force is pretty good too - so hardly an exception either. " In March 2017, the percentage of female officers was 29.1% in England and Wales, 29% in Scotland and 28.5% in Northern Ireland. In England and Wales, women made up a 61% majority of non-sworn police staff (likewise in Northern Ireland) and 45% of Police Community Support Officers." - taken from Wikipedia

and what does that show?

It shows that men primarily have the prestigious jobs with good pay and super-decent pensions, while women primarily have the support jobs (admin, etc) which have lower pay and conditions.

What you're saying is "pretty good" is the very thing women are rightfully complaining about.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

they choose their subjects 'freely', while bearing in mind the discrimination they face in some roles.  

For the music biz, until recently there were far fewer women making a living from music, and those that were tended to be more background roles (backing singer, not lead singer - that sort of thing).

So there haven't been the role models in the same proportion as men to have women thinking "I could do that" in the same proportion as men. And so they "freely" chose to do something else they feel is better suited.

Jeeezus. Do you really think women have fully equal role models, encouragement, and opportunity?  

Discrimination in roles at university? What subjects do women face discrimination in on a widespread scale? I bet there are some horrible examples of discrimination, but women do not as a whole face discrimination from any of the subjects they choose. They can choose anything they want.

As for the whole 'women need women role models part', I do not like cooking because of any men in my family who like cooking - in fact none of them really do. I like cooking because... I like cooking. This myth of role models having to be the same sex, race etc as them is just not true. I didn't want to become a skater because Bart Simpson was yellow and I am yellow. I do like Aretha Franklin because she is a woman, but because she's a fantastic singer. This all starts leading into identiarianism and that's another thing I oppose, as you could prob tell from the whole "Gammon-gate" saga.

And yes, for your last question, young girls are by FAR more supported and encouraged at schools from a young age. So much so that the UK education minister in the 90s changed college A-levels so that coursework (which girls excel at and boys don't) should be counted at a higher percentage. Since then, girls have flocked to uni in numbers far higher than boys have. That's just a fact.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and what does that show?

It shows that men primarily have the prestigious jobs with good pay and super-decent pensions, while women primarily have the support jobs (admin, etc) which have lower pay and conditions.

What you're saying is "pretty good" is the very thing women are rightfully complaining about.

Yes, women have a higher percentage of constables than higher up roles, and later on they can choose if they want to further their career and go higher up the ladder. If they don't want to do that, then it's okay. If they want to work part-time more (which is what the Office of NAtional Statistics shows) so they can have more time at home with their children, then can do that too. And it's okay. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, it's up to them to choose to do it. I don't think there's one big conspiracy to keep women "down", likewise I don't think women choose to go into the police as often as men. If there's 29% of women as constables that doesn't mean there has to be 29% of higher up positions too, not if they don't want to do it for various reasons.

[Kay95]

@MEGATRONICMEATWAGON you seem to base all your arguments on your own experience. As a man.  I'm not saying your experience is irrelevant, but it certainly isn't a good starting point for making assumptions about women's experiences.

Your point about the education system is a good one - many aspects of education are skewed towards favouring the way that girls learn, its less to do with favouring and supporting girls and more to do with how boys and girls differ in their development. it doesn't seem to have translated into women earning the same money as men though, does it?