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Are Tories welcome at Glastonbury

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18 minutes ago, strummer77 said:

I am a democrat though, and that's why I actually think that right now we had a vote we should be proceeding with Brexit in the immediate future but holding it to severe scrutiny. 

I'm with you on that part. Telling them their vote shouldn't count is only going to make them more determined. It's only by holding brexit to scrutiny that we might convince those who want to leave what a bad idea leaving is.

And I reckon we're getting there, too. There was someone (I forget who) who said it would take 18 months for the UK to properly wake up to the consequences, and that seems to be holding true to some extent.

Fingers crossed.

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17 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'm with you on that part. Telling them their vote shouldn't count is only going to make them more determined. It's only by holding brexit to scrutiny that we might convince those who want to leave what a bad idea leaving is.

And I reckon we're getting there, too. There was someone (I forget who) who said it would take 18 months for the UK to properly wake up to the consequences, and that seems to be holding true to some extent.

Fingers crossed.

Yes I agree. To ignore the vote would be a dangerous precedent and in my opinion would actually lead to the rise of even more dangerous far right movements.

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6 minutes ago, strummer77 said:

To ignore the vote would be a dangerous precedent and in my opinion would actually lead to the rise of even more dangerous far right movements.

Yup - but that's a different thing to it perhaps being over-turned.

The public mood might change, and change by clearly-enough so that it's right for the question to be revisited. And if it was, the only way it can be revisited is by the same method as was used last time (so another ref, to the same rules).

It's still a bit early for some noise about that to start (going too soon would probably work against it), but i'm currently worried there won't be any leader of stature prepared to make that noise when the time is right. :(

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2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

in a democracy the public can never be wrong.

Just like me, I'm sure you only think the public are wrong because the answer was the wrong answer for you.

 

Because some people are more-worthy to give the 'right' answer than others?

No. It's simply a question of how informed the choices that the public make are. Newspapers acting with vested interests (which they don't declare) take advantage of the fact people have busy lives and can't possibly be expected to be informed about every issue based on facts. Politicians are paid to make informed decisions based on facts - now you could (correctly) argue that our MPs have vested interests which often horribly overpower their primary duty of putting the country first, but they're still going to be more informed about societal and economic affairs than the vast majority of the public. 'Expanding democracy' doesn't work unless it goes hand-in-hand with better political education. Unless you can guarantee that the general public are going to be informed as MPs about the issues of the day, giving the public a vote on issues beyond picking their delegates to Parliament every five years is asking for trouble.

Incidentally I'm not saying swathes of the public didn't bother with proper research and reflection ahead of casting their vote last June, but equally it's clear as day that there are swathes of the public who didn't and just voted based on emotion and fear.

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22 minutes ago, Zac Quinn said:

No. It's simply a question of how informed the choices that the public make are. Newspapers acting with vested interests (which they don't declare) take advantage of the fact people have busy lives and can't possibly be expected to be informed about every issue based on facts. Politicians are paid to make informed decisions based on facts - now you could (correctly) argue that our MPs have vested interests which often horribly overpower their primary duty of putting the country first, but they're still going to be more informed about societal and economic affairs than the vast majority of the public. 'Expanding democracy' doesn't work unless it goes hand-in-hand with better political education. Unless you can guarantee that the general public are going to be informed as MPs about the issues of the day, giving the public a vote on issues beyond picking their delegates to Parliament every five years is asking for trouble.

Incidentally I'm not saying swathes of the public didn't bother with proper research and reflection ahead of casting their vote last June, but equally it's clear as day that there are swathes of the public who didn't and just voted based on emotion and fear.

Thing is, that's ultimately based within the idea that the public should be as informed as you believe you are - when there's no obligation on them to know more, and therefore it doesn't invalidate their choice or somehow make it worth less than yours.

It might be unfortunate for the outcome you/I might prefer when it works against you/me, but that's how it is and that's how it'll always be. Same with the newspapers, unless we're to stop having a free press. And if these people are so dumb, why can't smart people on our side get the better of them?

In the end, that narrative is just an excuse for failure: if only we had a different & better electorate, eh? :P

(also, if the stupid people are equally stupid, why can't they be equally stupid in a proportional way? There's all of the same influences onto them as there is everyone else)

And sometimes, when the politicians don't seem to be respecting their voters (and when those voters can see other EU states having refs at crucial points along the path we're being taken), it's hardly a surprise for the electorate to kick off and ask for themselves to make a decision. I think, as far as the EU is concerned the big mistake was not having a ref far earlier.

These are the things which have to be overcome or worked around. There's no other way without stepping over a line into somewhere darker.

Edited by eFestivals

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36 minutes ago, rivalschools.price said:

New thread- 

'Are Brexiters welcome at Glastonbury'

Considering one of them spoke on stage applauded and cheered by about 80,000 adoring fans, I would say yes. 

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3 hours ago, rivalschools.price said:

New thread- 

'Are Brexiters welcome at Glastonbury'

Depends what they want from Brexit. Anyone who voted for it to see Britain become a tax haven, or to cut H&S regulation etc, well they can get to fuck.

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