uscore Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 That's the key point. There's no majority for a 2nd referendum, sure, but it'll win in a head to head with most other options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 They won't have a second referendum as all parties signed up to the original one as a "Once in a lifetime opportunity" and to triggering article 50. and have been squabbling ever since. If any vote occurs it'll be described as a "confirmatory vote" and hopefully will have decent options:- Leave to WTO. Leave with TM's deal, Cancel article 50 and remain as we are now. Cancel article 50 and fully join the EU - inc Euro. As for TM - I think she'll get the push at the Tory conference (unless we can get the IRA to bomb the hotel again). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscore Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, Penrhos said: They won't have a second referendum as all parties signed up to the original one as a "Once in a lifetime opportunity" and to triggering article 50. and have been squabbling ever since. If any vote occurs it'll be described as a "confirmatory vote" and hopefully will have decent options:- Leave to WTO. Leave with TM's deal, Cancel article 50 and remain as we are now. Cancel article 50 and fully join the EU - inc Euro. Ha, I remember playfully suggesting these 4 votes, particularly the one I highlighted, ages ago. A hard remain to counter claims that a 3 way vote would be unfair on the leave options. I don't see it happening now. A "confirmation vote" would still only be 2 options imo. And obviously that'll have to be whatever deal is on the table (and acceptable to the EU) and remain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombfrog Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, Penrhos said: Leave to WTO. Leave with TM's deal, Cancel article 50 and remain as we are now. Cancel article 50 and fully join the EU - inc Euro. If that were to happen (which it won't), both sides of the argument would be fully aware of the isue of "splitting the vote" and campaigners on both sides wage campaigns urging people to vote for one of the "leave" options and one of the "remain" options. My guess would be that remainers would push people towards option 3 and nobody would vote for 4 while leavers would push people towards..... hang on a nimute, you may be onto something here. How would leavers avoid splitting their vote? Neither leave options is palattable to half of the leave contingent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscore Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 1 minute ago, bombfrog said: If that were to happen (which it won't), both sides of the argument would be fully aware of the isue of "splitting the vote" and campaigners on both sides wage campaigns urging people to vote for one of the "leave" options and one of the "remain" options. My guess would be that remainers would push people towards option 3 and nobody would vote for 4 while leavers would push people towards..... hang on a nimute, you may be onto something here. How would leavers avoid splitting their vote? Neither leave options is palattable to half of the leave contingent. that's the whole point. A 3 way vote would obviously be unfair because the leave vote is split, so the hard remain option is to balance it out. I don't think any one would really fall for this trick, but it is a fun thing to suggest on Leave Supporting forums. Trust me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcshed Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 Any referendum with more than 2 options will employ some kind of preference system like STV so as to not split the vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 50 minutes ago, uscore said: A 3 way vote would obviously be unfair because the leave vote is split most people are able to grasp a single transferable vote system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscore Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 17 minutes ago, eFestivals said: most people are able to grasp a single transferable vote system. We don't want a 3 way vote though! I think that (No Deal or May's Deal) has a chance of sneaking through against remain. You need to be onboard the stitch up train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 Just now, uscore said: We don't want a 3 way vote though! I'm quite relaxed for the vote to be on any options that can be justified. If the British people want to prove themselves collective idiots - again - then denying that within a vote on brexit isn't going to stop them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscore Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 1 minute ago, eFestivals said: I'm quite relaxed for the vote to be on any options that can be justified. If the British people want to prove themselves collective idiots - again - then denying that within a vote on brexit isn't going to stop them. Fair enough. Personally I think the idiots need to be restricted as much as possible to avoid them causing damage to themselves and the rest of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanoL Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 2 hours ago, eFestivals said: I'm quite relaxed for the vote to be on any options that can be justified. If the British people want to prove themselves collective idiots - again - then denying that within a vote on brexit isn't going to stop them. A three way STV vote might be just confusing enough for the Brexiteers to claim that stopped us getting our unicorns if May wins through. Remember in the AV referendum the main against argument was "it should be one person, one vote" and that won. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 1 hour ago, DeanoL said: Remember in the AV referendum the main against argument was "it should be one person, one vote" and that won. Can't say I ever heard anyone arguing that. I do remember saying that AV was an OK system but it wouldn't be my first choice. (think about it ) Variants of STV are well established in this country and its used for all sorts of stuff - the Scottish, Welsh and NI elections, plus electing the tory leader. If anyone claims it's beyond them then they might as well be sticking a pin in the ballot paper, cos that'll be about the value of their vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooderson Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 What a shitty mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcshed Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 5 hours ago, eFestivals said: most people are able to grasp a single transferable vote system. It is remarkable how often this needs to be pointed out even amongst the politically engaged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartbert two hats Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 3 hours ago, eFestivals said: Can't say I ever heard anyone arguing that. I do remember saying that AV was an OK system but it wouldn't be my first choice. (think about it ) Variants of STV are well established in this country and its used for all sorts of stuff - the Scottish, Welsh and NI elections, plus electing the tory leader. If anyone claims it's beyond them then they might as well be sticking a pin in the ballot paper, cos that'll be about the value of their vote. Or vote leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 9 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said: Or vote leave. if they can't understand STV they wouldn't understand what they're voting for so would be as likely to vote remain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarw Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 4 hours ago, eFestivals said: if they can't understand STV they wouldn't understand what they're voting for so would be as likely to vote remain. Unfortunately not. The dumbed down rhetoric of Farrage and his ilk are more powerful to those of limited understanding than reasoned arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 9 minutes ago, tarw said: Unfortunately not. The dumbed down rhetoric of Farrage and his ilk are more powerful to those of limited understanding than reasoned arguments. But they're too dumb to understand STV? Nah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woffy Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 10 minutes ago, tarw said: Unfortunately not. The dumbed down rhetoric of Farrage and his ilk are more powerful to those of limited understanding than reasoned arguments. The fuckwit was on the Radio 4 7.10am slot this morning. I made a conscious decision to try and listen to him (bear with me...) as if i knew nothing about him or the lies and bile he spouts...to try and see what some people take away from his rants. (Without going into why the BBC keep giving him a platform and when they do fail to challenge his bullshit) In a perverse and utterly terrifying way i can almost see why the unthinking or those that don't read or listen to anything else or go any deeper that the S*n gobble up the fucking shite he spouts. Speaking of those with limited understanding, what's everyone's take on the European elections (should they happen). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarw Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Woffy said: The fuckwit was on the Radio 4 7.10am slot this morning. I made a conscious decision to try and listen to him (bear with me...) as if i knew nothing about him or the lies and bile he spouts...to try and see what some people take away from his rants. (Without going into why the BBC keep giving him a platform and when they do fail to challenge his bullshit) In a perverse and utterly terrifying way i can almost see why the unthinking or those that don't read or listen to anything else or go any deeper that the S*n gobble up the fucking shite he spouts. Speaking of those with limited understanding, what's everyone's take on the European elections (should they happen). I think that it is a mistake to call Farrage a fuckwit. I get the impression that he is like Boris - an intelligent man pretending to be a buffoon. Far more dangerous than a fuckwit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 33 minutes ago, tarw said: Boris - an intelligent man pretending to be a buffoon. The buffoon bit isn't an act. He doesn't do detail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartbert two hats Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 (edited) 52 minutes ago, tarw said: I think that it is a mistake to call Farrage a fuckwit. I get the impression that he is like Boris - an intelligent man pretending to be a buffoon. Far more dangerous than a fuckwit. They are a pair of fuckwits who are slightly cleverer than they appear. Actually, scrub that, Farage isn't as clever as he appears and as for Boris - if he was actually an intelligent man he would have shown himself capable of fulfilling his brief at the foreign office, which he most definitely did not. Edited April 12, 2019 by stuartbert two hats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woffy Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 And then there's Boris's vanity projects whilst Mayor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartbert two hats Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 13 minutes ago, Woffy said: And then there's Boris's vanity projects whilst Mayor. And his water cannon which he bought before finding out whether it was legal to use them, which nobody would buy. The man's fucking useless, he's not a genius pretending to be a buffoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said: The man's fucking useless, he's not a genius pretending to be a buffoon. Correct. But he's also a man with an Eton Old Boy's sense of entitlement and connections, which explains his success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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