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Brexit at Glasto?

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I think its far more important to defeat the far right today than to defeat brexit. The only party with a chance of doing that is labour. 

From a tactical point of view from those who want a second referendum, I don't see how their cause is aided by the Brexit Party winning by 15-20% because they decided to vote Lib Dem to send a message. 

Saying that, that's just my opinion and everyone should get out and vote however they feel is best

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3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

How I'm choosing to vote has fuck all to do with what I think of Corbyn and everything to do with what I think of his desire for brexit.

Any 'win' will not be counted by party, but by for or against brexit.

Farage has greater credibility by giving a vote to pro-brexit Labour.

£5 to Water Aid if the Brexit Party wins and the headlines focus more on a pro-Brexit majority than on Farage's Brexit Party winning?

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I have the displeasure of voting in Northern Ireland so will be an in vain vote for the Greens and Alliance for me. 

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1 minute ago, mcshed said:

£5 to Water Aid if the Brexit Party wins and the headlines focus more on a pro-Brexit majority than on Farage's Brexit Party winning?

the brexit party is going to win.

100% for the reason that Labour is pro-brexit.

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4 minutes ago, mcshed said:

We all know you think Corbyn is as bad, if not worse by how much you go on about him, as Farage but I dare say the other people disagree with you.  This isn't a referendum and the only possible way of avoiding Farage Wins as the takeaway headline from this vote is to vote Labour.

How do you judge who won?  Total share of vote or number of MEPs elected?  I would judge it on MEPs who are pro or anti brexit. To vote Labour would a) probably not increase their number of seats under the electoral system used and b) be counted as a vote for a pro brexit party. I say this as someone who has never voted anything other than Labour and used to be very active in the movement.

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3 minutes ago, tarw said:

How do you judge who won?  Total share of vote or number of MEPs elected

The media will almost certainly judge it on total share of votes

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3 minutes ago, tarw said:

How do you judge who won?  Total share of vote or number of MEPs elected?  I would judge it on MEPs who are pro or anti brexit. To vote Labour would a) probably not increase their number of seats under the electoral system used and b) be counted as a vote for a pro brexit party. I say this as someone who has never voted anything other than Labour and used to be very active in the movement.

I suspect the lead figure used will be overall national vote share, that's certainly the figure used when discussing UKIP's "win" last time.

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10 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

the brexit party is going to win.

100% for the reason that Labour is pro-brexit.

Says the life-long voter of the party best placed to beat them who isn't voting for that party.

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2 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

The media will almost certainly judge it on total share of votes

Unfortunately I think that the media will chose which ever measure shows their golden boy Farage in the best light. 

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56 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

hope you're all going to get out and vote today. We can't let Farage have it all to himself.

#CantVoteBrexitLabour

Going to vote Green Party for the first time as like you I don't feel I can vote Labour on this occasion. Hopefully the Greens could do well here in the South West. 

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1 minute ago, rubenz said:

Going to vote Green Party for the first time as like you I don't feel I can vote Labour on this occasion. Hopefully the Greens could do well here in the South West. 

+1 here in the West Midlands

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Not ashamed to say this is the first time I've ever been invited to vote and had no idea who to vote for. Our politics are a shitshow. The biggest motivation is to vote against Farage and his merry band of pricks. Wanting to vote against something rather than for something is quite sad.

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15 minutes ago, mcshed said:

Says the life-long voter of the party best placed to beat them who isn't voting for that party.

I didn't vote Labour in the last Euros either (the only time in my life I haven't) - because Green was a more-effective vote where i live.

But, you know, "principles". If St Jez Of Manhole is allowed them and admired for them, shouldn't the same be allowed for others too?

If Labour want me to support them they need to take a position I can support.

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20 minutes ago, mcshed said:

I suspect the lead figure used will be overall national vote share, that's certainly the figure used when discussing UKIP's "win" last time.

the man who says the EU is undemocratic will use the democracy of the EU to claim he's won a democratic vote. Fantastic, isn't it? 

Farage 'won' the EU elections last time too.

But a win for brexit isn't about getting 35% of the vote.  

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1 hour ago, Scott129 said:

The media will almost certainly judge it on total share of votes

The issue is how do you count Labour and Conservative votes?  In this election they are wasted votes.

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2 hours ago, Scott129 said:

I think its far more important to defeat the far right today than to defeat brexit. The only party with a chance of doing that is labour. 

From a tactical point of view from those who want a second referendum, I don't see how their cause is aided by the Brexit Party winning by 15-20% because they decided to vote Lib Dem to send a message. 

Saying that, that's just my opinion and everyone should get out and vote however they feel is best

I think Labour losing lots of seats over an issue they are divided over might cause them to finally choose a position.

Also if you want to defeat the far right, how is getting Lib Dems elected not doing that. Nobody could call them far right and many polls show them currently in 2nd place (behind Brexit party which is most definitely far right).

I think if you want Britain to remain in the UK you should vote for one of the remain parties as this election will be used as a proxy for a 2nd referendum. And personally, think it makes sense to vote Lib Dem as they are leading remain party in the polling.

However, completely agree with your last sentence.  This is just my opinion and everyone should get out and vote however they feel is best

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Worth noting - if you mainly want to plant a remain vote - the MEPs are more along the lines of proportional representation, by region.

So there may be areas (in England) where voting Green will be as good as / better than voting Lib Dem. In London, with eight seats, one already with Greens, voting Green is not a wasted vote. There are other areas where voting Lib Dem is the best choice, because there are far fewer seats and Green isn’t in the running,

 

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There's a few ways of looking at this election: 

1) It's a proxy for a second referendum: Farage has formed an entire new political party to run on it being just that. If it is the case you can be sure that, in working out "remain" versus "leave" votes that Labour will be counted in the "Leave" column. Because that's their position.

2) We're not leaving any time soon, if at all, so it's actually an election for our representatives in Europe. 

3) It's some weird opinion poll that everyone will use to justify their position.

I'm sort of baffled by Farage actually running. I mean, we lost, he won, getting over it. Opening up the vote again seems potentially dangerous if Remain parties did do well. On the other hand, his party doing well gets him very little. Except for personal glory, obviously.

It's also telling how committed that the Tories are to Brexit that they're even running at all. They could easily have said "we're not running, because we are definitely leaving and it won't matter". Basically nullifying any criticism of failure on their part, on the basis they didn't enter the race. But of course, they know there's a good chance we don't leave, and don't want to lose influence in Europe.

A vote for Labour isn't really useful in any circumstance. If you want to stop Brexit, they won't do that. If you want Brexit to happen, well, then why care about who our MEPs are?

Yes, when the figures come out if the Brexit party have the highest share of the vote, they will have "won" and if more people had voted Labour maybe they wouldn't. But if more people voted Labour the media will just do the maths differently: "sure, Labour had the highest share but Tories + Brexit Party is still higher" or "a massive majority for Leave-supporting parties". That's the problem. It's a PR system (mostly), there's no real "winning" or "losing" party. It's about getting the most people that support most of your views into the EU parliament. And no-one is looking at this election from that perspective, because we're meant to be leaving. And the party likely to get the most votes will expressly never take their seats.

We can try and second guess how the media will report it, but it's not like that is fixed in stone. Not like The Sun have the headline template already done with "X gets most votes and wins" so we just have to ensure Labour get most votes. Each media outlet will report the results in the way that makes it best for them. Regardless of what happens, The Sun will call it a victory for Brexit. The Guardian will talk about the surge in Remain supporting parties, and so on.

Therein lies the problem: you can't vote tactically when we can't actually say how victory is going to be defined.

So where does that leave us? Well it's three years on and there's still not a coherent plan for actually leaving the EU, so maybe vote for the party you think will actually represent us best while we are still *in* the EU? 

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3 hours ago, Scott129 said:

I think its far more important to defeat the far right today than to defeat brexit. The only party with a chance of doing that is labour. 

From a tactical point of view from those who want a second referendum, I don't see how their cause is aided by the Brexit Party winning by 15-20% because they decided to vote Lib Dem to send a message. 

Saying that, that's just my opinion and everyone should get out and vote however they feel is best

My main worry in the event of a second referendum, is that the left always seems more comfortable fighting amongst itself than taking on the right- the EU elections have been a dry run of that and have allowed Farage and no deal to soar. Personally, I think him coming first is way worse than Labour coming first (though I am biased as I'm a  labour member!)- but whichever left wing party you vote for, do turn out and vote.

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10 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

There's a few ways of looking at this election: 

1) It's a proxy for a second referendum: Farage has formed an entire new political party to run on it being just that. If it is the case you can be sure that, in working out "remain" versus "leave" votes that Labour will be counted in the "Leave" column. Because that's their position.

2) We're not leaving any time soon, if at all, so it's actually an election for our representatives in Europe. 

3) It's some weird opinion poll that everyone will use to justify their position.

I'm sort of baffled by Farage actually running. I mean, we lost, he won, getting over it. Opening up the vote again seems potentially dangerous if Remain parties did do well. On the other hand, his party doing well gets him very little. Except for personal glory, obviously.

It's also telling how committed that the Tories are to Brexit that they're even running at all. They could easily have said "we're not running, because we are definitely leaving and it won't matter". Basically nullifying any criticism of failure on their part, on the basis they didn't enter the race. But of course, they know there's a good chance we don't leave, and don't want to lose influence in Europe.

A vote for Labour isn't really useful in any circumstance. If you want to stop Brexit, they won't do that. If you want Brexit to happen, well, then why care about who our MEPs are?

Yes, when the figures come out if the Brexit party have the highest share of the vote, they will have "won" and if more people had voted Labour maybe they wouldn't. But if more people voted Labour the media will just do the maths differently: "sure, Labour had the highest share but Tories + Brexit Party is still higher" or "a massive majority for Leave-supporting parties". That's the problem. It's a PR system (mostly), there's no real "winning" or "losing" party. It's about getting the most people that support most of your views into the EU parliament. And no-one is looking at this election from that perspective, because we're meant to be leaving. And the party likely to get the most votes will expressly never take their seats.

We can try and second guess how the media will report it, but it's not like that is fixed in stone. Not like The Sun have the headline template already done with "X gets most votes and wins" so we just have to ensure Labour get most votes. Each media outlet will report the results in the way that makes it best for them. Regardless of what happens, The Sun will call it a victory for Brexit. The Guardian will talk about the surge in Remain supporting parties, and so on.

Therein lies the problem: you can't vote tactically when we can't actually say how victory is going to be defined.

So where does that leave us? Well it's three years on and there's still not a coherent plan for actually leaving the EU, so maybe vote for the party you think will actually represent us best while we are still *in* the EU? 

Labour will oppose a no deal brexit, and that's what we'll be faced with when Boris or whoever becomes PM (unless he does a spectacular about face). The time for a compromise brexit deal is pretty much over- it was important Labour tried for that so they can honestly say 'we tried in good faith' to hopefully piss off the brexiters less.

Honestly, the second referendum campaign is a red herring- the reality is we'll be faced with no deal or revoke (or general election), doubt we'll get to a second referendum. Boris seems to want no deal, and won't offer a second referendum. furthermore there will be no legislation to amend for opposition parties to force a second referendum (not that they had the numbers) as the Tory meltdown yesterday showed. If Boris decides no deal, and refuses any legislation that can be amended to stop it, then the only way to stop it will be to force a general election via a vote of no confidence.

I think Farage coming second in the EU elections would be a huge hit to him (I'd settle for Labour narrowing the gap and coming a close second)- him coming clear first with the left vote split pretty much evenly between Labour, Greens and Lib Dems will be a PR boost for the obnoxious toad man. 

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36 minutes ago, paulo999 said:

Worth noting - if you mainly want to plant a remain vote - the MEPs are more along the lines of proportional representation, by region.

So there may be areas (in England) where voting Green will be as good as / better than voting Lib Dem. In London, with eight seats, one already with Greens, voting Green is not a wasted vote. There are other areas where voting Lib Dem is the best choice, because there are far fewer seats and Green isn’t in the running,

 

yep, whatever you do, the left vote split three ways in a way that's not even tactical, is the worst case scenario- so do some homework before you vote!

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3 hours ago, jparx said:

Not ashamed to say this is the first time I've ever been invited to vote and had no idea who to vote for. Our politics are a shitshow. The biggest motivation is to vote against Farage and his merry band of pricks. Wanting to vote against something rather than for something is quite sad.

I know this is the narrative being pumped out at the moment, but I don't get it- you've never had so much choice. What exactly isn't good enough for you? What exactly do you want? I'm happy with labour, but if you're not, then I don't get what your problem is with the Lb Dems or Greens

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