Things can only get better

[Mich1268]

12 minutes ago, CharlotteB said:

 

True, but it's difficult. It's like someone having a fight outside your house. 

Mmm to be fair. I would watch that from my window and give live commentary to my family WhatsApp group. Not good of me I know. Read through the threads and yes, we need to stand by our Glastonbury brothers and sisters who are Jewish and who are Palestinian and not think we understand their individual experiences.  That's what we do in the Glastonbury family. See you at the Glade! 💃 🕺 

[CanWeRest]

1 hour ago, Physical_graffiti said:

Totally understand. Would hope they feel welcome at glasto. I'd hope nobody at glasto would venture anywhere near anti semitism or making anyone uncomfortable.

 

I'm afraid I strongly disagree here. To another person, waving a Palestine flag is support of innocent civilians being murdered by the Israeli government. I wouldn't impose your beliefs as to what a flag means onto others, who may have different beliefs as to what that means.

 

 

Wasn't around for the others, but Ukraine was definitely evident. Zelensky even did a message on screen specifically directed at the Glastonbury audience!

You're right, sometimes people protest some bad things and not other bad things. The reason the Israeli government gets focus is a) they are supported by our government (unlike Hamas) and b) the innocent death they have caused is unlike anything we have seen in our lifetimes, so it's simply a numbers issue. They are the biggest killers, so will probably be seen as the biggest issue for a lot of people.

 

I think you'd have different thoughts if someone you knew was raped, tortured, and murdered, then a few months later you see someone waving a flag around representing the government that was responsible for it. Basic respect to the victims! 

[CanWeRest]

2 hours ago, Colorblindjames said:

I’m assuming you also agree that anyone waving an Israeli flag around would be the act f a f**kwit too. 

 

Absolutely. While this conflict is raging respect should be shown to the victims, and anything that could be construed as outsiders taking a side is unhelpful and would only add to the suffering.

[Crazyfool01]

27 minutes ago, CharlotteB said:

 

I've literally just been told my reply will probably get deleted, so...?

not a single post has been deleted ...  that reply was in response to the general discussion not an individual post you made,  it applied wider apologies if you thought any post youd made was an issue in any way 

[tarw]

48 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Fair enough. I've said a few things, heard a few things and hopefully learned a few things though in this discussion and I only really go on the chat thread.  So I'd have probably missed it on the international politics one.  I think it drifted from people being excited about Starmer being PM into people calling him a killer or something and it probs did get out of hand a bit.  Anyway thanks to physical graffiti, colourblindjames and a few others for the chat. 

Like you I never venture into the politics section it sounds too scary and hardcore to me. Be good to have a chat about these issues somewhere though. 

[Ommadawn]

1 hour ago, Crazyfool01 said:

MOD decision here FYI .... 

 

So why have a separate Politics thread at all then? Weird decision.

[irnkrtn]

3 hours ago, Physical_graffiti said:

In response to your friends feeling uncomfortable - I'd hope and feel confident that they would be loved and supported at Glastonbury. I can totally understand why they might feel uncomfortable, but even something as crude as "f**k Israel" is shorthand for "f**k the Israeli government" - specifically their actions killing innocent Palestinians, which is nothing to do with the Israeli people. It would horrify me to think of any Jewish person experiencing discrimination at the best place in the world. It's a tactic of the Israeli government to conflate the two though. I'd say don't fall into their trap - take people at their word when they are criticising a government that that is what they are doing, not criticising an entire ethnic group.

I think it’s important for people to say what they mean and understand what they are saying. This is the bedrock of thoughtful activism. Although feelings do get caught up, you have articulated really well an example of where something might be “crude” and not meant as what is said but still, understood to be the words that are actually said. Better to be specific - F the government is clear what it means right? 

 

its also important to be careful not to conflate everything into conspiracy even if its tiny conspiracy. “It’s a tactic of the Israeli government to…” is a bit conspiracy. Let’s all take ownership of our own words and actions, recognise how we can articulate strong emotions and politics but also do so precisely so as to avoid misunderstanding? It’s probably not the fault of Netanyahu if you say “F Israel” and a Jewish person understand that to mean “F Israel”, and take you at your word. That’s why it’s good to reflect on what we say. PLUS its so much easier to fix things we are individually responsible for as well. Win win! 
 

I hope everyone has a blessed festival and that our Jewish friends feel welcome. Sadly I have Jewish friends who have returned their tickets because they are nervous and worried about the experience they will have. Let’s all do what is in our power, where we have it, to bring about peace. 

[irnkrtn]

2 hours ago, Colorblindjames said:

You keep making these false equivalencies. Our government and tax money isn’t going towards carrying out the other conflicts you mention. I’m encouraged however that you are comparing the actions of Israel to these other genocides. Progress. 

You may want to read up on those other conflicts as in most of them, the UK was as much if not more involved than they are in tensions within the Middle East. 

[Nuthugger]

2 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

 

So why have a separate Politics thread at all then? Weird decision.

 

they roll a dice 😅

if they close it now it shows that they were wrong to let it continue like they did with the paul currie thread and I dont think they dont want to admit the same mistake twice. thats probably the crux of it imo

[efcfanwirral]

https://twitter.com/NatashaC/status/1793682298484707421

 

this made me laugh. Maybe they won't play it...

 

Though U R The Best Thing is a great song, forgot about that one til I searched them on Spotify

Edited May 23 by efcfanwirral

[Mark E. Spliff]

I've got strong views on this issue and have waded in on previous threads, and seen things I disagree with on this thread.  What mystifies me is anyone reacting to a thread like this by asking for it to be moved or shut down.  If you think Glastonbury is an influencer's party where people get together to show off their single-use plastic tat, then fine - I can understand why a heated debate like this might be out of your comfort zone.  But you must be wearing blinkers if you're unaware that Glastonbury tries to get involved in social/political affairs.  In recent years, we've seen a few examples of the festival making cowardly decisions about giving a platform to voices which are going to upset the Daily Mail, so I think it's important that forums like this keep debates like this front-and-centre.  It's really not difficult to not click on the thread if you don't like it.

[Ommadawn]

1 hour ago, Mark E. Spliff said:

I've got strong views on this issue and have waded in on previous threads, and seen things I disagree with on this thread.  What mystifies me is anyone reacting to a thread like this by asking for it to be moved or shut down.  If you think Glastonbury is an influencer's party where people get together to show off their single-use plastic tat, then fine - I can understand why a heated debate like this might be out of your comfort zone.  But you must be wearing blinkers if you're unaware that Glastonbury tries to get involved in social/political affairs.  In recent years, we've seen a few examples of the festival making cowardly decisions about giving a platform to voices which are going to upset the Daily Mail, so I think it's important that forums like this keep debates like this front-and-centre.  It's really not difficult to not click on the thread if you don't like it.

Except the thread title doesn't reflect the content so your comment about not clicking on it is irrelevant really. There is a active politics thread elsewhere so I don't see why this shouldn't be moved there. Can you give an example of other solely political threads in the Chat forum as I can't? I think we forget sometimes that the majority of attendees don't go to the festival for the politics (the festival would still easily sell out each year if there was no political content at all)

 

Much has been said by the Mods in the past that they don't want to discourage new members to the forum and I think this is exactly what this thread could do for the average Glastonbury attendee who is logging on solely for getting info/chatting about the festival. 

[Nuthugger]

40 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

Except the thread title doesn't reflect the content so your comment about not clicking on it is irrelevant really. There is a active politics thread elsewhere so I don't see why this shouldn't be moved there. Can you give an example of other solely political threads in the Chat forum as I can't? I think we forget sometimes that the majority of attendees don't go to the festival for the politics (the festival would still easily sell out each year if there was no political content at all)

 

Much has been said by the Mods in the past that they don't want to discourage new members to the forum and I think this is exactly what this thread could do for the average Glastonbury attendee who is logging on solely for getting info/chatting about the festival. 

exactly. the original post was nothing to do with the conflict but was still something that should have gone in the politics area. then the topic completely changed and became off topic in the thread that was already off topic becoming double off topic. now it has changed topic again and it has become a discussion about whether the off topic discussion should be allowed in the off topic thread. 

 

the only similar thread in here I can remember is the paul currie one which was closed. 

 

another recent one about livenation was instantly moved for being off topic even though many of the artists at this years glasto have used ticketmaster to sell tickets.

....and if you think thats a stretch its the same excuse the mods used for not moving the eurovision thread (because some of the contestants had been to glasto before)

 

so theres no reason or rhyme to any of this. start a thread about another world conflict and see what happens. because by this logic that should stay in the forum too

Edited May 23 by Nuthugger
besides even if this was moved like the livenation thread youd still be able to see it. itd just drop a bit faster. no reason to keep it here

[Mark E. Spliff]

2 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

Can you give an example of other solely political threads in the Chat forum as I can't? I think we forget sometimes that the majority of attendees don't go to the festival for the politics (the festival would still easily sell out each year if there was no political content at all)

 

No - I can't, off the top of my head, give you any other examples of solely political threads on the Glastonbury chat forum.  What I can give you are many, many examples of threads going back over 20 years for which my most diplomatic description would be 'drivel.'  Threads about 'weather gods,' 'virtual campfires' where people used to act out a baffling role-play of offering 'virtual' joints to each other whilst sitting around a non-existent campfire and, of course, the many, many threads where handbag battles are fought over whether a particular musical artist is good or bad.  I have absolutely zero interest in any of these things, but rather than flee the forum in tears, I choose to rarely, if ever, view these threads.  I don't see this as any kind of burden and I don't understand why you're stamping your feet about the existence of a thread you're not interested in.

 

It's interesting that you're placing significance in the fact that Glastonbury could still sell out, even if it were to abandon it's social/political/environmental/cultural crusades.  I'm sure you're right about this, and I'm sure you're right about the majority of attendees having zero interest in any of these issues.  I tend to draw the diametric opposite conclusion from this though - I see whatever's left of Glastonbury's radical spirit as something unique in a mega-festival and therefore to be cherished and protected - not swept away and replaced with middle of the road, lowest common denominator pop drivel.

[Ommadawn]

Wow - you are feeling superior tonight aren't you.

[Mark E. Spliff]

25 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

Wow - you are feeling superior tonight aren't you.

If there's one thing the entire world can agree on it's that I'm a dislikeable person in every conceivable way.  But other than your fully-justified call-out of my ghastly attitude and demeanour, did you have any thoughts on what was actually written?

Edited May 23 by Mark E. Spliff

[stuie]

Please can someone pass me the virtual joint? 

[WS_Jack_III]

10 hours ago, goldfishboy said:

yes and I'm surprised Brian Cox, with his science background, failed to consider the possibility that Things might continue to worsen

I think he has commented on the scientific inaccuracy of the song. 

 

Edit. Found the clip https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00dtx2t

Edited May 24 by WS_Jack_III

[Neil]

17 hours ago, Physical_graffiti said:

That's the most insane thing I've ever read on here, basically to accuse the crowd at the most welcoming inclusive party on earth of being antisemitic.

I assume you are referring to the fair assumption that we have that there is likely to be a large amount of support among the festival goers for the Palestinian people not being oppressed. I'm struggling to link that to ticket holders wanting to damage the welfare of Jewish ticket holders, and I think it's pretty disgusting you are.

its very binary, in this conflict if you're either with 'us' (either side), or  you're against us.

[tarw]

11 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

Except the thread title doesn't reflect the content so your comment about not clicking on it is irrelevant really. There is a active politics thread elsewhere so I don't see why this shouldn't be moved there. Can you give an example of other solely political threads in the Chat forum as I can't? I think we forget sometimes that the majority of attendees don't go to the festival for the politics (the festival would still easily sell out each year if there was no political content at all)

 

Much has been said by the Mods in the past that they don't want to discourage new members to the forum and I think this is exactly what this thread could do for the average Glastonbury attendee who is logging on solely for getting info/chatting about the festival. 

To me the beauty of this forum is the meandering nature of the threads. Most threads will go way off topic- often encompassing politics, cheese puns and the weather. 
If a topic goes off in a direction that I don’t like or disagree with I will not read it until it gets back. 
Yes Glastonbury would sell out as a purely musical event, but that is not what it is. It has been about politics as well from the beginning. It was the CND festival for years, it has a whole area for recharging activism and ME has stood as a Labour candidate in elections. 
it’s what makes Glastonbury special. 
If we loose the political element, the Greenfields etc.  we become another Coachella and who wants that?

[Ommadawn]

1 hour ago, tarw said:

To me the beauty of this forum is the meandering nature of the threads. Most threads will go way off topic- often encompassing politics, cheese puns and the weather. 
If a topic goes off in a direction that I don’t like or disagree with I will not read it until it gets back. 
Yes Glastonbury would sell out as a purely musical event, but that is not what it is. It has been about politics as well from the beginning. It was the CND festival for years, it has a whole area for recharging activism and ME has stood as a Labour candidate in elections. 
it’s what makes Glastonbury special. 
If we loose the political element, the Greenfields etc.  we become another Coachella and who wants that?

 

I don't really disagree with much of that. However, quite often I like to get away from the political chat in the UK Politics forum and I find this forum a safe haven.
 

So Mods, for full clarity, can we now post overtly political threads in here as well as in the UK or International politics thread? If so, should the title be Glastonbury related even if much of the content isn't.

[Blisterpack]

31 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

 

I don't really disagree with much of that. However, quite often I like to get away from the political chat in the UK Politics forum and I find this forum a safe haven.
 

So Mods, for full clarity, can we now post overtly political threads in here as well as in the UK or International politics thread? If so, should the title be Glastonbury related even if much of the content isn't.

Much of the discussion though was on the issue relating to Jewish festival-goers and that is very relevant. I have friends who are Jewish and have decided to go, albeit with some trepidation, and one of our colleagues on this thread gave a similar analysis from his own perspective. We also had the very sad comment about some people who are Jewish returning their tickets for fear of what it will be like this year. This is a scenario which I believe some on here might wish to pretend is rare, but I suspect it isn’t. 
This is absolutely a discussion about Glastonbury and is a discussion about REAL inclusivity. 

[Physical_graffiti]

5 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Much of the discussion though was on the issue relating to Jewish festival-goers and that is very relevant. I have friends who are Jewish and have decided to go, albeit with some trepidation, and one of our colleagues on this thread gave a similar analysis from his own perspective. We also had the very sad comment about some people who are Jewish returning their tickets for fear of what it will be like this year. This is a scenario which I believe some on here might wish to pretend is rare, but I suspect it isn’t. 
This is absolutely a discussion about Glastonbury and is a discussion about REAL inclusivity. 

Yeah I agree, it’s all relevant stuff surely, like me and you have clearly different views but the general debate on this thread has been fairly respectful, those posting are happy to engage with it, and if you don’t want to engage with it you don’t have to reas this thread (we don’t all read every single topic on here do we?! Can pick and choose what interests us).

 

It’s not a pure politics theme - the theme has generally been about how the Glastonbury crowd will react to the whole thing, on all sides. Fairly relevant discussion on a glasto forum, no need to want to shut it down because some bits might be uncomfortable. There’s plenty more irrelevant stuff to glasto discussed around here!

Anyway I won’t drag it out, I’ve said everything I probably want to and been interesting to hear others thoughts. we’re all looking forward to the best weekend of the year, hope everyone has a wonderful time and feels the love on the farm, peace and love to all ✌️ 

 

[CaledonianGonzo]

Expressions of Palestinean solidarity don't make Jews unsafe - and claiming otherwise erases all the Jews that stand alongside those people protesting for freedom fir Palestine.

 

They may - and hopefully do - make Zionists uncomfortable, but these are two very different things - and that discomfort will be a good thing if it generates a moment of reflection on the violence that Zionism requires to sustain itself.

 

I was assaulted by a Zionist in Edinburgh late last year whilst carrying a Palestinean flag after a demo, so I'm probably not going to bother in June* due to the hassle for both myself and my friends if something similar were to happen.

 

*And also cause it'll be a pain in the arse to carry quite frankly.

[Blisterpack]

2 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Expressions of Palestinean solidarity don't make Jews unsafe - and claiming otherwise erases all the Jews that stand alongside those people protesting for freedom fir Palestine.

 

They may - and hopefully do - make Zionists uncomfortable, but these are two very different things - and that discomfort will be a good thing if it generates a moment of reflection on the violence that Zionism requires to sustain itself.

 

I was assaulted by a Zionist in Edinburgh late last year whilst carrying a Palestinean flag after a demo, so I'm probably not going to bother in June* due to the hassle for both myself and my friends if something similar were to happen.

 

*And also cause it'll be a pain in the arse to carry quite frankly.

Given that nearly half of the Jews living on the planet actually live in Israel and that the vast majority of those who don’t are supportive of the right of the state of Israel to be a homeland to the Jewish race (note: the word ‘majority’ does obviously imply that there are some Jews who don’t share that view) then the term Zionist could reasonably be interpreted as ‘Jewish’ by some. Like my good friends for example. As somebody said a few posts up- words matter.