Avalon 2023

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

3 minutes ago, Memory Man said:

For me this debate is who hated first…. Tories hated first with their disgusting policies and behaviour. So “they started it” !! As childish as that is.

In reality no i am not going to be going round tory bashing at the festival but you’d think they’d have the good sense to keep quiet about their political views at the festival anyway, knowing its history. 

But that's my point. People at Leftfield/Avalon, or the whole of Glasto in general, should focus on trying to convince people over to their side with reason and logical thought. It's a democracy after all, we've got to provide better arguments and solutions that meet the people's expectations. If we can't even do that then we're just gonna be stuck with the Tories another decade. I find it counterproductive.

If I meet a Tory at Glasto and it turns to politics, I'm going to engage, not hate.

Edited April 19, 2023 by MEGATRONICMEATWAGON

[CaledonianGonzo]

Ban protest entirely imho.

Oh wait.

[JudgeGrumpy]

25 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

It was awful populist crap. He had no self-awareness, especially when talking about Trump's plan to build a wall... at a music festival with a ruddy huge wall around it to keep out illegal entrants and criminals 🤣 And I told my friends this afterwards, I didn't care if anyone heard me, but what you're saying is that basically I should have kept my mouth shut and just nodded along like a good little drone?

Nobody saying you should be quiet (try to debate on what people are actually saying rather than anything else) but you should be prepared for people to rip the piss out of you for comparing the two things in such a mindless way. 

If anything, the still-a-bit-porous-anyway Glasto fence at 7.8 km versus the USA/Mexico border at 3,124 km shows any parallel you were trying to make to discredit Corbyn was utterly ridiculous. 

Corbyn’s manifesto was the best chance this country had to not slide further into a Tory hellscape. Sadly Starmer has binned most of the best policies (public ownership of water and energy for example) to be as Tory-lite as he can.
 

Scotland has water in public ownership but not the rest of the UK. Why? Because 1898 is closer to the last time Scotland voted Tory than today is. 

You seem to be missing the point that Tories in their current incarnation *are* hateful. They are a far right English nationalist party - not my quote, but said by one of Thatcher’s ministers. Which is precisely why they would get short shrift if Rishi bounded on stage and tried to give a speech like Corbyn did. I’d welcome his appearance for the laugh though. Would be one of my must sees. 

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

9 minutes ago, JudgeGrumpy said:

Nobody saying you should be quiet (try to debate on what people are actually saying rather than anything else) but you should be prepared for people to rip the piss out of you for comparing the two things in such a mindless way. 

If anything, the still-a-bit-porous-anyway Glasto fence at 7.8 km versus the USA/Mexico border at 3,124 km shows any parallel you were trying to make to discredit Corbyn was utterly ridiculous. 

Corbyn’s manifesto was the best chance this country had to not slide further into a Tory hellscape. Sadly Starmer has binned most of the best policies (public ownership of water and energy for example) to be as Tory-lite as he can.
 

Scotland has water in public ownership but not the rest of the UK. Why? Because 1898 is closer to the last time Scotland voted Tory than today is. 

You seem to be missing the point that Tories in their current incarnation *are* hateful. They are a far right English nationalist party - not my quote, but said by one of Thatcher’s ministers. Which is precisely why they would get short shrift if Rishi bounded on stage and tried to give a speech like Corbyn did. I’d welcome his appearance for the laugh though. Would be one of my must sees. 

Oh, so now it's just the size of the wall that makes a difference? Lol. If you can't understand the principle idea of a wall, then God help us.

Anyway, again, I'm not defending Tory policies, don't know how many times I have to say that. I'm also not trying to get into a political back and forth.

But your first point is quite absurd, your comment that sparked this whole conversation is because you said any Tories at the festival should keep their heads down 🤣 Now I think you're just trolling me for a laugh.

 

 

[Gnomicide]

So... Far From Saints. Liking what I've heard so far but only 2 songs available. The album isn't out until 16th June so we may only hear one or two more tracks before that.

They've only played two gigs so far, all original tunes, nothing from either Stereophonics or The Wind and The Wave.

Where do we see them placed on the bill? I'm expecting a big crowd because of Kelly Jones but it's difficult to gauge how big. Sub maybe? Apart from headlining, does it even matter with Avalon? Crowd size fluctuates throughout the day.

[4AssedMonkey]

I could actually see Far From Saints taking an earlier slot.  I think they want to distance themselves from the other material and so may only have enough for a 40-50 minute slot.  I'm sure loads of Stereophonics fans will turn up regardless, but suspect they may be disappointed.

[stuie]

1 hour ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

But that's my point. People at Leftfield/Avalon, or the whole of Glasto in general, should focus on trying to convince people over to their side with reason and logical thought.

If anyone at Glasto still intends to vote Tory after 13 years of misery, corruption, lies and real terms pay cuts then reason and logical thought isn't going to change anything. 

They should come along to Jamie Webster to see what everyone else thinks.

[DeanoL]

1 hour ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

People saying that Glasto "isn't a festival of peace and love, it's a Left-wing festival" or "Tories should keep their heads down" just boggles my mind. Basically saying "It's okay for us to hate."

Nope. You just made that last bit up. It's "basically saying" exactly what it says. No need to re-phrase it fight a strawman. No-one is hating people. I'm a socialist but I certainly don't "hate" Tories. There's absolutely a place for Tories at Glasto. But what there isn't a place for is Tory ideology and ideas. That's what people mean when they say "keep their heads down" - because those people will find themselves challenged, in a way they are not challenged regularly. And a lot of people find that really quite uncomfortable.

And as it happens, if you're the sort of person that does regularly find themselves confronted, challenged, othered and made to feel out of place in society... you're probably not voting Tory.

[DeanoL]

1 hour ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

I mean, I'm an atheist, am I allowed to find anyone in the crowd who supports organised religions and have a go at them as well? Or start a chant "Fuck Catholics/Muslims/Jews?"

No, but you can start a chant of "Fuck God/Allah/Yaweh" if you want.

[faymondo]

"Der der der da Fuck The Tories but they are still welcome to Glastonbury der der dad da................."

Whilst a spot on message doesn't quite have the same ring to it. 

[DeanoL]

59 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Oh, so now it's just the size of the wall that makes a difference? Lol. If you can't understand the principle idea of a wall, then God help us

Look - your comment about the irony of Corbyn talking about Trump's wall in Glastonbury, surrounded by a huge wall keeping people out? You know what that was? Fucking funny. Great gag. Sort of thing Hislop would say on Have I Got News For You. There's irony there. It's a fun observation.

What it's not? A salient political point. It's not even a political point at all. A wall built as border control to stop immigration from one country to another is an entirely different thing to a wall built to keep people out of a commercial, ticketed event. The only thing they have in common is they are "walls".

And the reason I point this out is because you can be a Tory and make those sort of observations in the pub and everyone will go "oh haha, yeah stupid liberals" and you'll feel good about yourself. But you make that sort of observation at Glastonbury, as if it's an actual political point and not a gag, and a lot of people far smarter and more politically engaged that you will explain to you exactly why it's total nonsense and may well not do so in the most friendly way either. And that's why people are saying "keep your Tory views to yourself" when it comes to Glasto. 

If you want to learn, if you want a conversation, if you want to say, "look, I believe this because of these things but I'm happy to hear why I might be wrong and maybe we can have a conversation" that's totally fine. No-one is going to have a go at you for that. If you're a lifelong free-market capitalist and truly believe in the system and have done all the reading and can also acknowledge how the Tories have entirely corrupted it but Labour would make it even worse, sure, knock yourself out. But if you're just going to go around quoting the meaningless soundbites and point scoring on which modern Tory populism is based, the "hurhur, Corbyn's against Trump's wall but pro-Eavis', he must be wrong about everything" then you're going to find yourself hopelessly outmatched.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

21 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Nope. You just made that last bit up. It's "basically saying" exactly what it says. No need to re-phrase it fight a strawman. No-one is hating people. I'm a socialist but I certainly don't "hate" Tories. There's absolutely a place for Tories at Glasto. But what there isn't a place for is Tory ideology and ideas. That's what people mean when they say "keep their heads down" - because those people will find themselves challenged, in a way they are not challenged regularly. And a lot of people find that really quite uncomfortable.

And as it happens, if you're the sort of person that does regularly find themselves confronted, challenged, othered and made to feel out of place in society... you're probably not voting Tory.

Nope, nothing made up and I'm not talking about the song - I've written that plenty of times now. If you read the original comment you'd see. It was intended as a threat to "know their place." No strawman in sight, except the one where you try and ascribe your own misinterpretation of the comment in question. Also, saying that Tory voters are unchallenged on a regular basis - that's just ad hominem. No substance to it whatsoever other than your own bias.

You're not going to gaslight me into believing that "someone should keep their head down" is not in anyway threatening.

And if there were Tories there, wouldn't you want to challenge their opinions instead of issuing threats that they should shut the hell up?  Otherwise, what's the point of Leftfield? Surely, it's to challenge ideas? 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by MEGATRONICMEATWAGON

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

18 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

No, but you can start a chant of "Fuck God/Allah/Yaweh" if you want.

Who is God of the Tories then? Should we change the chant to "Fuck Maggie"?

Where are you getting your logic from!? Lol.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

6 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Look - your comment about the irony of Corbyn talking about Trump's wall in Glastonbury, surrounded by a huge wall keeping people out? You know what that was? Fucking funny. Great gag. Sort of thing Hislop would say on Have I Got News For You. There's irony there. It's a fun observation.

What it's not? A salient political point. It's not even a political point at all. A wall built as border control to stop immigration from one country to another is an entirely different thing to a wall built to keep people out of a commercial, ticketed event. The only thing they have in common is they are "walls".

And the reason I point this out is because you can be a Tory and make those sort of observations in the pub and everyone will go "oh haha, yeah stupid liberals" and you'll feel good about yourself. But you make that sort of observation at Glastonbury, as if it's an actual political point and not a gag, and a lot of people far smarter and more politically engaged that you will explain to you exactly why it's total nonsense and may well not do so in the most friendly way either. And that's why people are saying "keep your Tory views to yourself" when it comes to Glasto. 

If you want to learn, if you want a conversation, if you want to say, "look, I believe this because of these things but I'm happy to hear why I might be wrong and maybe we can have a conversation" that's totally fine. No-one is going to have a go at you for that. If you're a lifelong free-market capitalist and truly believe in the system and have done all the reading and can also acknowledge how the Tories have entirely corrupted it but Labour would make it even worse, sure, knock yourself out. But if you're just going to go around quoting the meaningless soundbites and point scoring on which modern Tory populism is based, the "hurhur, Corbyn's against Trump's wall but pro-Eavis', he must be wrong about everything" then you're going to find yourself hopelessly outmatched.

Like I've said now for probably the 10th time, I'm not trying to defend anyone's policies... 

But yes, when Corbyn said that about Trump and his walls, it was pretty dumb. If Corbyn wanted to take aim at the border wall in the USA, why did he choose to do it at a festival with a bloody great wall around it to keep illegal entrants from coming in?

A wall that is designed to keep illegals out, stop the crossing of illegal products into the festival, to keep the festival stable, to keep out thieves... sounds pretty much how Trump advocated for his wall.

Why didn't JC take aim at Israel? Or the wall between Pakistan and Afghanistan? Or the ones surrounding the enclaves of Spanish territory in North Africa? Or the fences and walls that stop immigrants getting onto ferries bound for the UK from France in Calais? Why did he suddenly choose Trump? Because Corbyn is a moron, that's why.

Edited April 19, 2023 by MEGATRONICMEATWAGON

[DeanoL]

12 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Like I've said now for probably the 10th time, I'm not trying to defend anyone's policies... 

But yes, when Corbyn said that about Trump and his walls, it was pretty dumb. If Corbyn wanted to take aim at the border wall in the USA, why did he choose to do it at a festival with a bloody great wall around it to keep illegal entrants from coming in?

Why not? The two aren't comparable at all. "Oh but Corbyn complained about Trump's wall in a house and that has walls too, what a hypocrite" ... I don't even... I'm sorry, I don't want to be rude, but it's such a *stupid* point. It's funny, like I say, it's a good gag, and there's irony to it for sure. But something being ironic doesn't make it wrong in any way shape or form.

You know what is comparable? Brexit. Brexit was our "wall". It was sold with the exact same intentions: keep immigrants out. And Corbyn was in favour of Brexit. He supported our wall. He was against Trump's. That was a problem for me and a lot of other Labour voters. That's the actual political Corbyn wall point. It's more subtle, it's not as funny, but it actually stands up.

[DeanoL]

21 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Who is God of the Tories then? Should we change the chant to "Fuck Maggie"?

Where are you getting your logic from!? Lol.

Fuck Rishi. Oh man. Fuck Boris! If only someone had said that at Glasto. Would never happen though.

When people chant "fuck the Tories" they mean the party, not the voters. 

I mean there's a long tradition of the lefty chant being "fuck [the current Tory leader/PM]" but the problem at the moment is we're running out of songs. "Fuck the Tories" is safer as you won't end up out of date.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

9 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Why not? The two aren't comparable at all. "Oh but Corbyn complained about Trump's wall in a house and that has walls too, what a hypocrite" ... I don't even... I'm sorry, I don't want to be rude, but it's such a *stupid* point. It's funny, like I say, it's a good gag, and there's irony to it for sure. But something being ironic doesn't make it wrong in any way shape or form.

You know what is comparable? Brexit. Brexit was our "wall". It was sold with the exact same intentions: keep immigrants out. And Corbyn was in favour of Brexit. He supported our wall. He was against Trump's. That was a problem for me and a lot of other Labour voters. That's the actual political Corbyn wall point. It's more subtle, it's not as funny, but it actually stands up.

The two aren't comparable? Deano, come on? That's just being dishonest. You can directly compare them.

- Trump's reasons for the wall: force people to go through legal routes into the USA, stop unvetted access to the US, stop the transport of drugs into the USA and other criminals

- Glasto's reasons for the wall: force people to go through legal routes into the festival, stop unvetted access to the festival, stop the transport of drugs into the festival and other criminals 

Whether you like it or not, they are the same.

Or why, in your own words, does Glasto have or need a wall around it?

 

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

17 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Fuck Rishi. Oh man. Fuck Boris! If only someone had said that at Glasto. Would never happen though.

When people chant "fuck the Tories" they mean the party, not the voters. 

I mean there's a long tradition of the lefty chant being "fuck [the current Tory leader/PM]" but the problem at the moment is we're running out of songs. "Fuck the Tories" is safer as you won't end up out of date.

Jesus H. Christ. I've said this a tonne of times now. I don't care about the song or the chanting. I bet there were Tory voters at that gig enjoying it, either ridiculing it or enjoying the hilarity of it.

The comment that I didn't like was the fact someone said the Tory voters should keep their heads down, which I think is counterproductive because, a) it won't work or change anyone's opinions, b) is threatening, c) makes people look like bullies.

And like I asked someone else, what exactly are you gonna do about it if they don't keep their heads down? Just what?!

Imagine all the Tories at the festival and they hear the chant or get asked who they voted for and they get lots of abuse and then they go back to their tent and say, "Oh that guy had a really big go at me during Elton John, now we're gonna start voting Labour!"

Never gonna happen, is it?

The only way they're gonna change is if they feel engaged and you can articulate arguments that convince them to change. You can't just tell them to keep their heads down and change their opinions.

Edited April 19, 2023 by MEGATRONICMEATWAGON

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

2 hours ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Ban protest entirely imho.

Oh wait.

Who's advocating that?

I'm talking about threats, not a chant.

Edited April 19, 2023 by MEGATRONICMEATWAGON

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

1 hour ago, stuie said:

If anyone at Glasto still intends to vote Tory after 13 years of misery, corruption, lies and real terms pay cuts then reason and logical thought isn't going to change anything. 

They should come along to Jamie Webster to see what everyone else thinks.

I'm assuming that Tory voters don't see it in those terms. A chant ain't gonna change much. Threatening people will just lead to more threats/division.

[Justcalledtosay]

@MEGATRONICMEATWAGON is basically saying no one should be made to feel unwelcome at a festival that is very much centred around inclusion and diversity. I agree.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

Just now, Justcalledtosay said:

@MEGATRONICMEATWAGON is basically saying no one should be made to feel unwelcome at a festival that is very much centred around inclusion and diversity. I agree.

Exactly!

[stuie]

9 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

I'm assuming that Tory voters don't see it in those terms. A chant ain't gonna change much. Threatening people will just lead to more threats/division.

As has been said quite a few times now, no one is threatening anyone. 

 

 

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

Just now, stuie said:

As has been said quite a few times now, no one is threatening anyone. 

 

 

Except the person who said that others should keep their head down?

[hpops]

8 minutes ago, Justcalledtosay said:

@MEGATRONICMEATWAGON is basically saying no one should be made to feel unwelcome at a festival that is very much centred around inclusion and diversity. I agree.

Some people should be made to feel unwelcome - racists/homophobes for example. It's the age old Popper paradox. I wouldn't go so far as to apply this to tory voters - but sometimes it edges uncomfortably close