news & politics:discussion

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, lost said:

More than acceptable. I seem to remember after he made that speech when Princess Di died I think his approval rating hit a level never seen before or since in a properly functioning democracy.

Tony Blair is one of our best ever Prime Ministers probably only behind Attlee. 

[clarkete]

16 hours ago, Neil said:

So you agree with them that it's your fault, clarkete. 

He he. 

Obviously there are many reasons people vote for a party.  You asked for reasons and I supplied.

I find it much easier to understand why people vote snp than why  folks who aren't wealthy vote tory - although tbh in the days of social media it's easy to see folks repeating lies, bigotry or culture war triggers they've picked up from the papers or t'internet. 

[mattiloy]

13 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Tony Blair is one of our best ever Prime Ministers probably only behind Attlee. 

The way you feel about the wisdom of people who still believe in Boris is the way wiser people feel about people who still believe in Blair.

[lost]

38 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Tony Blair is one of our best ever Prime Ministers probably only behind Attlee. 

Well Labour had to change in some way. After the Berlin wall came down and people saw what socialism had done to Eastern Europe (the images coming out of the Romanian orphanages etc..) an old style left winger wouldn't of got a look in. I think his issue now is as the left of the party wanted Brown in nobody bothered to try to defend his legacy and (rightly Imo) felt guilt over the mess in Iraq.

Edited April 30, 2022 by lost

[Guest]

Just now, lost said:

Well Labour had to change in some way. After the Berlin wall came down and people saw what socialism had done to Eastern Europe (the images coming out of the Romanian orphanages etc..) an old style left winger wouldn't of got a look in.

Yeah I agree. Blair was savvy enough to realise this and moved the Labour Party towards to voters which meant they could enable so many of the good policies that they did. 

[Neil]

42 minutes ago, clarkete said:

He he. 

Obviously there are many reasons people vote for a party.  You asked for reasons and I supplied.

I find it much easier to understand why people vote snp than why  folks who aren't wealthy vote tory - although tbh in the days of social media it's easy to see folks repeating lies, bigotry or culture war triggers they've picked up from the papers or t'internet. 

they say the English govern them badly but then vote for a party which governs them badly. i missed when Scotland became a colony to be governed by the English, Blairs labour was stuffed with Scots and they hated that. lol

[pink_triangle]

2 hours ago, mattiloy said:

 

'They're all as bad as each other' - Blair's legacy.

A government so bad, so unpopular that even despite the shitshow of the last decade, Labour cannot gain traction as an alternative. ITT - laughable analysis from people whose idea of public opinion is derived from a handful of dewy eyed centrist blue ticks on twitter who are misinterpreting their nostalgia for their coke addled days in their late 20s/early 30s, shmoozing their way around fleet street, with an actual good government..

I find this term "centrist" funny as I rarely here anyone call themselves a centrist but the likes of Owen Jones seem obsessed with the term. To me believing in investment in health, education and reducing poverty are left wing views, all were achieved under Labour government particularly in early years.

[pink_triangle]

48 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Tony Blair is one of our best ever Prime Ministers probably only behind Attlee. 

Admittedly the competition isn't that high! Blair legacy is tainted by Iraq, but reality is any potential alternative PM at the time (Labour or Tory) would have made the same decisions.

[Guest]

Just now, pink_triangle said:

Admittedly the competition isn't that high! Blair legacy is tainted by Iraq, but reality is any potential alternative PM at the time (Labour or Tory) would have made the same decisions.

I agree on all points. Iraq has understandably tainted Blair's legacy.

[mattiloy]

5 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I agree on all points. Iraq has understandably tainted Blair's legacy.

 

The only moment that he chose to be radical was when he chose to become a war criminal. Blair and Putin, peas in a pod.

The New Labour years were an abject failure. Only a fool would evaluate them differently.

 

Anyway, happy international workers day, even to all the scabs ITT.

[steviewevie]

[steviewevie]

39 minutes ago, lost said:

Well Labour had to change in some way. After the Berlin wall came down and people saw what socialism had done to Eastern Europe (the images coming out of the Romanian orphanages etc..) an old style left winger wouldn't of got a look in. I think his issue now is as the left of the party wanted Brown in nobody bothered to try to defend his legacy and (rightly Imo) felt guilt over the mess in Iraq.

Not sure had much to do with Easter Europe...just that despite thatcher the Tories kept winning, and 92 was kind of when labour really started to change direction.

As for Iraq, that was obviously a disaster, but it would have happened anyway with or without Blair so not sure why he persevered, I guess thought more important to keep that so called special relationship with US, or maybe God talked to him when he prayed with bush. But also, Blair isn't Putin.

As for now, maybe if labour are going to ever win, especially with Scotland lost to snp, they need to move to the centre because england just isn't that left wing.

[mattiloy]

19 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I find this term "centrist" funny as I rarely here anyone call themselves a centrist but the likes of Owen Jones seem obsessed with the term. To me believing in investment in health, education and reducing poverty are left wing views, all were achieved under Labour government particularly in early years.

 

See its funny, I feel the same way about the terms ’populist’ and ’demogogue’ which centrists like to use as a perjorative towards those on the left.

Considering Blairs appetite for blowing with the wind of public sentiment, governing by focus group, giving away freebies financed by unsustainable solutions like selling off publicly owned assets and PFI… seems like a bit of populist/demagogue carry on to me..

Centrism to me is those who basically see nothing wrong with the system, just something wrong with the people in charge, if their lot were in charge then they’d tweak a few things and hey presto, things can only get better.

Usually they are people who are winners of the system and so can’t fathom that there is something wrong with it.

They want to feel like they are doing their bit so agree with increased public spending, but they don’t want to pay more tax because they feel like they worked hard for their money. They think that big wage differentials in an economy are normal because they believe in that some individuals (namely themselves) bring a unique and irreplaceable skillset to the table, presumably because they don’t want to admit that they just arent that special…

Because they are big into individualism they also mythologise the individual, and, paradoxically, end up making a big deal out of personality politics despite harping on about how populism and demagoguery are the domains of the rest of the political spectrum (nobody does fanboying like the centre - see @Ozannefor reference).

The kind of people whose idea of saving the planet is maybe to buy a brand new tesla when they could just as easily take public transport. The cake and eat it too-ers.

[Guest]

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today 😛

[lost]

13 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Not sure had much to do with Easter Europe...just that despite thatcher the Tories kept winning, and 92 was kind of when labour really started to change direction.

Doesn't really make any sense that Major wasn't that popular and yet people wouldn't take a chance on Kinnock. As far as I remember the mid 90's really felt like a "year zero" period with as much of a political consensus as we are ever going to get. The right winning the economic argument and the left the social (gay, women's rights etc..)

[steviewevie]

[Guest]

 

[pink_triangle]

23 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

 

See its funny, I feel the same way about the terms ’populist’ and ’demogogue’ which centrists like to use as a perjorative towards those on the left..

Centrism to me is those who basically see nothing wrong with the system, just something wrong with the people in charge, if their lot were in charge then they’d tweak a few things and hey presto, things can only get better.

Usually they are people who are winners of the system and so can’t fathom that there is something wrong with it

Because they are big into individualism they also mythologise the individual, and, paradoxically, end up making a big deal out of personality politics despite harping on about how populism and demagoguery are the domains of the rest of the political spectrum (nobody does fanboying like the centre - see @Ozannefor reference).

 

The thing is most of the true "centrist" are those not obsessed by politics and just vote every couple of years. My work is full of them, but they never come out and talk about being a centrist. They just talk about other things. Labour under Starmer are not a centrist party in my view, but clearly there are differing opinions within MPs which is a good thing.

Also for the talk about people doing ok and thinking about themselves as an individual. I would argue under Corbyn Labour attracted a load of middle class people much happier shouting in opposition (as they would do ok anyway) than a clear desire to get stuck in and change things.

[lost]

19 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The thing is most of the true "centrist" are those not obsessed by politics and just vote every couple of years. My work is full of them, but they never come out and talk about being a centrist.

This. Labels are difficult which I why is used "old left" old left for me is democratic socialist i.e the state should own the means of production. New left is social democrat i.e private individuals or corporations being levied higher tax rates. Both are left but its gets difficult because firstly everyone has a different opinion on things that should or shouldn't be run by the state and secondly well we have pretty high taxes currently so you could make an argument for the tories being social democrats under Boris.

I think there was a comment on the recent Blair doc about labour arguing if Marks and Spencer's should be nationalised and how ridiculous that looked in the 90's. That for me was the shift Blair made in the labour party.

Edited April 30, 2022 by lost

[Copperface]

Parish resigning........after er, a little bit of tractor?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61284686?at_medium=custom7&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom1=[post+type]&at_custom4=DD9FC58C-C87E-11EC-A179-756D96E8478F&at_custom3=%40BBCBreaking&at_campaign=64

[philipsteak]

I mean he's now destined to be a punch line for ever anyway, but he really didn't help himself with the whole tractor thing. 

[mattiloy]

2 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

The thing is most of the true "centrist" are those not obsessed by politics and just vote every couple of years. My work is full of them, but they never come out and talk about being a centrist. They just talk about other things. Labour under Starmer are not a centrist party in my view, but clearly there are differing opinions within MPs which is a good thing.

Also for the talk about people doing ok and thinking about themselves as an individual. I would argue under Corbyn Labour attracted a load of middle class people much happier shouting in opposition (as they would do ok anyway) than a clear desire to get stuck in and change things.

Don’t know where to start with that really. So people who don’t engage with politics are centrists and then a classic daily mail trope about those who supported Labour in 2019 as being a load of whiney middle class kids… load of bollocks old son.

From experience I know that the Corbyn supporting coalition was largely working class all ages, and young people all socio economic backgrounds, thats who I met. Because these are the people who have been most fucked over by govts of recent decades. New Labour didnt work for them.

Older middle class people did not because basically they don’t want to be taxed more, they don’t want to have to sell their buy to lets, they don’t want to give up their gas guzzling landies, even if it means their kids are fucked.. 

Then finally, the manifesto was the most radical for a mainstream party since the post war general elections. To say that the supporters were not motivated by a desire for change, and that New Labour were, whose legacy is what exactly? A big load of nothing. What a lot of shite.

 

[mattiloy]

2 hours ago, lost said:

This. Labels are difficult which I why is used "old left" old left for me is democratic socialist i.e the state should own the means of production. New left is social democrat i.e private individuals or corporations being levied higher tax rates. Both are left but its gets difficult because firstly everyone has a different opinion on things that should or shouldn't be run by the state and secondly well we have pretty high taxes currently so you could make an argument for the tories being social democrats under Boris.

I think there was a comment on the recent Blair doc about labour arguing if Marks and Spencer's should be nationalised and how ridiculous that looked in the 90's. That for me was the shift Blair made in the labour party.

Consumer gas and electric, water, rail.

Surely anybody can see that profit seeking has been to the detriment of all these sectors in recent decades? Get on board.

[Copperface]

40 minutes ago, philipsteak said:

I mean he's now destined to be a punch line for ever anyway, but he really didn't help himself with the whole tractor thing. 

Apparently his wife is now leaving him, and has sent him a John Deere letter.......

[Punksnotdead]

10 minutes ago, Copperface said:

Apparently his wife is now leaving him, and has sent him a John Deere letter.......

If you've thought of this joke yourself, I congratulate you sir 👏

In other news: floppy-haired fuckwit Fabricant has finally apologised to nurses and teachers for his comments. Only about a month late you c**t!