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news & politics:discussion


zahidf

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3 minutes ago, Ryan1984 said:

I don’t know if it is. Judging by the cheers about masks no longer being needed, he may have bought himself some time.

I mean it clearly is over for him, whether he’s brought himself time now or not, he’s done. 

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Just now, Homer said:

Surely Davis wouldn't have done that without consulting some of the main players first? Must be more big-hitters planning to follow his lead.

You’d have thought so, I doubt the Covid update today will make many change their minds considering everything else that has gone on.

That Davis question was really damaging. 

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Ideologically, how does one defect from tory to Labour?

Sure its fine for certain voters who maybe aren’t as driven by any constant set of beliefs but to become a tory MP presumably you have some underlying belief in individualism, the free market etc

So either he’s had some sort of damascene epiphany, or Labour is now a safe haven for those who are ideologically opposed to left wing politics.

Edited by mattiloy
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3 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Ideologically, how does one defect from tory to Labour?

Sure its fine for certain voters who maybe aren’t as driven by any constant set of beliefs but to become a tory MP presumably you have some underlying belief in individualism, the free market etc

So either he’s had some sort of damascene epiphany, or Labour is now a safe haven for those who are ideologically opposed to left wing politics.

middle ground...centrism...you love it.

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3 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Ideologically, how does one defect from tory to Labour?

Sure its fine for certain voters who maybe aren’t as driven by any constant set of beliefs but to become a tory MP presumably you have some underlying belief in individualism, the free market etc

So either he’s had some sort of damascene epiphany, or Labour is now a safe haven for those who are ideologically opposed to left wing politics.

I'm guessing it was more driven by self-preservation than ideology.

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3 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Ideologically, how does one defect from tory to Labour?

Sure its fine for certain voters who maybe aren’t as driven by any constant set of beliefs but to become a tory MP presumably you have some underlying belief in individualism, the free market etc

So either he’s had some sort of damascene epiphany, or Labour is now a safe haven for those who are ideologically opposed to left wing politics.

I'd say he has no ideology, he just knows he'd be out of a seat at the next election if he stays Tory.

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1 minute ago, Barry Fish said:

To be fair the SNP have held the same tone throughout - its a bit the boy crying wolf with them...  Its why its important for Starmer not to do it every week...

whilst I agree , it shows his contempt for parliament at the same time ....  like its all some kind of joke or game the kind of response you'd expect from a child trying to annoy his parents when being told off .... 

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37 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Ideologically, how does one defect from tory to Labour?

Sure its fine for certain voters who maybe aren’t as driven by any constant set of beliefs but to become a tory MP presumably you have some underlying belief in individualism, the free market etc

So either he’s had some sort of damascene epiphany, or Labour is now a safe haven for those who are ideologically opposed to left wing politics.

That very question puts an importance on ideology that not everyone - voters or MPs - shares.

Some MPs genuinely get into politics because they want to do their best as a representative for their constituency, and they'll join whichever party allows them to do so - even if they have to vote for a bunch of things they don't entirely agree with.

Looked at through a more cynical lens: some MPs genuinely get into politics because of ambition and a burning desire for power, and they'll join whichever party facilitates this - even if they have to vote for a bunch of things they don't entirely agree with.

And for voters, yes beliefs matter, but so does character and action on local issues. If an MP is seen to be "doing a good job" with things that voters in the constituency care about, then they can still win elections even when their ideology is shockingly out of step with the electorate.

Basically, people are complicated and ideology isn't everything.

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9 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Its probably where you find the best of politics to be honest...

Agreed. As boring as it can be, a centrist, moderate approach is usually the one that upsets the least people and has the best chance of succeeding.

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55 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Its probably where you find the best of politics to be honest...

 

44 minutes ago, maelzoid said:

Agreed. As boring as it can be, a centrist, moderate approach is usually the one that upsets the least people and has the best chance of succeeding.


After decades of centrist politics, with the UK lurching from crisis to crisis for much of that time and with the nearly static growth in real disposable income since 1997 and household debt increasing enormously, then you both conclude that more centrism is needed..

If people are worse off and the political system has deteriorated to such an extent, call me crazy but I’d start to wonder if maybe something needed to change.

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Edited by mattiloy
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i'm determined to go, but the wife say that i cant go, as i won't manage it, i reckon i can do it, abd i'm not ready to give up just yet.

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    • Ah, well. Never mind, hey.
    • In August 2009, in his Spectator blog he wrote about Harriet Harman, deputy leader of the Labour Party, in unflattering terms. Liddle began the article by asking: "So — Harriet Harman, then. Would you? I mean after a few beers obviously, not while you were sober."[27] Tanya Gold wrote in The Guardian that Liddle had delivered a "tissue-thin polemic." Pointing out that it was The Spectator's cover story that week.[28] Rachel Cooke in The Observer nearly two months later recalled finding Liddle's piece "disgusting"[29] Cooke went on to say: "I would still like to do something really unpleasant to the man who wrote [the article]." Liddle said two months later that the Harman column "was supposed to be a parody of guttural, base sexism", a joke he assumed readers would understand. After the negative response from Gold (and then Cooke, among other female journalists) he continued: "And then I suppose I came to the conclusion – gradually – that I must have got it wrong."[30] In June 2014, he said that of those he had offended, Harman was the one person to whom he would apologise.[31] In November 2009, again for The Spectator website, he offered "a quick update on what the Muslim savages are up to," a brief article about the stoning to death of a 20-year-old woman in Somalia after she was accused of adultery, and the similar death of a 13-year-old the year before. He made remarks, considered sarcastic, that read: "Incidentally, many Somalis have come to Britain as immigrants recently, where they are widely admired for their strong work ethic, respect for the law and keen, piercing, intelligence."[32][33] In December 2009, on his Spectator blog, Liddle referred to two black music producers, Brandon Jolie and Kingsley Ogundele, who had plotted to kill Jolie's 15-year-old pregnant girlfriend, as "human filth" and said the incident was not an anomaly. He continued: When he was accused of racism, Liddle said he was instead engaging in a debate about multiculturalism.[35][36] In March 2010 the Press Complaints Commission (PCC) upheld a complaint against Liddle, who became the first journalist to be censured over the contents of a blog, because he had not been able to prove his claim about the crime statistics.[37] After the publication of London crime figures in June 2010, The Sunday Telegraph suggested Liddle was largely right on some of his claims, but that he was probably wrong on his claims about knife crimes and violent sex crimes.[38] In October 2010, Liddle called for the abolition of the Welsh language TV channel S4C as a result of the 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review. In his article for The Spectator, he described Welsh nationalists as "miserable, seaweed munching, sheep-bothering pinch-faced hill-tribes".[39] On 23 May 2013, Liddle wrote about the murder of soldier Lee Rigby near the Royal Artillery Barracks in Woolwich, London. In the original version of a blog article for The Spectator, he referred to the perpetrators as "two black savages".[40] After many objections to his language use,[41] this phrase was modified.[42] Liddle apologised.[40][43] Giving a speech at Durham University in December 2021, Liddle said: "It is fairly easily proven that colonialism is not remotely the major cause of Africa's problems, just as it is very easy to prove that the educational underachievement of British people of Caribbean descent or African Americans is nothing to do with institutional or structural racism."[44] Independent editor rumour and Millwall supporters' website The Guardian reported on 8 January 2010 that the expected purchase of The Independent by Alexander Lebedev, a Russian billionaire, would be followed by the appointment of Liddle as editor.[45] Roy Greenslade wrote on 11 January that the reports were provoking a "major internal and external revolt" by The Independent's staff and readers.[46] The stories about Liddle's posts on Millwall Online apparently further reduced the likelihood of his being offered the job.[47] Finally, on 19 February, Stephen Brook of The Guardian reported that Liddle was no longer in the running for the post.[48] Tim Luckhurst, professor of journalism at the University of Kent, argued that Liddle's prospects of editing The Independent were nullified "by the people behind a viciously intolerant campaign of liberal bigotry".[49] In January 2010, the press drew attention to allegedly racist and misogynist comments posted under the username "monkeymfc"—a name Liddle has used—on Millwall Online, a fan club web forum with no official connection to Millwall Football Club. Liddle attributed some of the comments to opposition fans logging in under his name to embarrass him. He later said he had written some of the posts that were being criticised, including one in support of the BNP excluding Black and Asian people from the party.[50] Another post, in which he joked about not being able to smoke at Auschwitz,[51] led to his being asked to explain what he meant in The Jewish Chronicle.[47] While he said in June 2014 that his comments were taken out of context, he said that he did not regret making them. "No. Never. Absolutely not. I thought about my mates at Millwall Online, God I respect them so much more than these other people, these ghastly f**king people."[31] Stephen Lawrence, disabled and transgender people In November 2011, an article by Liddle for The Spectator suggested the trial of two men accused (and later convicted) of murdering Stephen Lawrence would not be fair.[52] It was referred to the Attorney General Dominic Grieve by the judge for possible contempt of court,[53] and he ordered the jurors not to read it. Having decided that it might have breached a court order, Grieve passed the case on to the Crown Prosecution Service and the Director of Public Prosecutions.[54] The decision that The Spectator was to be prosecuted by the CPS for breaching reporting restrictions was announced on 9 May 2012, with a court hearing scheduled for 7 June, although Liddle as the author was not himself liable for prosecution. Fraser Nelson, the magazine's editor, announced that the prosecution would not be contested,[55] and the magazine pleaded guilty at the hearing. The fine was £3,000, plus £2,000 compensation to Stephen Lawrence's parents and £625 costs.[56] In January 2012, Liddle wrote that many people in the UK were "pretending to be disabled" in his column for The Sun,[57] an opinion defended by James Delingpole.[58] Frances Ryan in The Guardian accused him of "belittling something that on a daily basis affects real people" who can be "a huge benefit to society. Maybe for a month Liddle would like to try that."[59] In May 2015, the Independent Press Standards Organisation (IPSO) upheld a complaint from Trans Media Watch that Liddle had been discriminatory towards Emily Brothers, a blind and transgender Labour candidate at the 2015 general election, in two Sun columns published in December 2014 and January 2015. In commenting in the way he had Liddle had breached two sections of the editors' code.[60][61] Column on poppers and gay sex During a parliamentary debate on the Psychoactive Substances Bill – which "makes it an offence to produce, supply, offer to supply, possess with intent to supply, possess on custodial premises, import or export psychoactive substances"[65] the Conservative politician Crispin Blunt admitted he used poppers: Liddle responded in his Spectator blog: The satirical and current affairs magazine Private Eye described this as hypocritical, pointing out Liddle's account in The Sunday Times of using Viagra in July 2004.[68][69] A spokesperson from the LGBT rights charity Stonewall said of Liddle's remarks: "Comments like this are shocking and damaging, but we wouldn't expect anything less from repeat offending bigots like Rod Liddle."[70] Column on Muslim voters In October 2019, Liddle penned a column in The Spectator commenting on the forthcoming December 2019 UK general election, which suggested that the election should be held on a Muslim holy day to reduce the Labour vote. 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    • A true social democrat
    • I thought the same thing I thought when Baresi went which is there sure is a hell of alot of people who don't make the new pension age.
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