news & politics:discussion

[BobWillis2]

11 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

This thread has become the new shit ends one ? Lots of posters seem to have moved over today ?!  Almost like it’s organised …. 

Is there a list of clique approved threads that other posters are allowed to post on? 
 

Please forward it on. 

[ace56blaa]

1 hour ago, Barry Fish said:

So stick up for people on benefits, immigrants and unionised workers.

The average working class bloke in Burnley won't be interested...

Because they are constantly told to not be interested by the daily rag etc. - A lot of people seemed to be interested when the child school dinners scandal happened or the exams scandal. People thought the tories were monster back then. But the public have a short memory and seem to forget that giving rich kids better grades and no food to poor kids is part of tory policy and identity. 

Yet how many tory voters would say they align with those values? 

[Crazyfool01]

3 minutes ago, BobWillis2 said:

Is there a list of clique approved threads that other posters are allowed to post on? 
 

Please forward it on. 

😀 aw bless u … so victimised … much love ❤️ 

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

The baby doesn't like debate...  You need a good echo chamber...

I think if you have a read of my posts in the other thread you might see different …  but interesting you revert to name calling … that’s a great way to debate … perhaps I should learn from you 😀

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

Well we was all discussing politics before you decided to make it about you again....  

as you were … carry on then … 

[steviewevie]

I'm feeling a bit hard done by here....efestivals bloke calling me out for ruining this thread...because I was critical of Starmer and had forgotten about his pledges....when at same time I just see rants about corbynite trots and snp sex pests...ffs.

[Gingerfish79]

There isn't any meaningful debate or discussion in this thread or the other. Last year the other 'political' thread was excellent and a great forum to learn and discuss. Slowly but surely that changed and now both are dominated by a relatively small group of posters continuously stating the same opinions as fact and childishly dismissing anybody who dares to disagree. 

[SwedgeAntilles]

Well said Nic 👊

 

[ace56blaa]

11 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

What I tend to find is the average working class vote is tired of being ignored and talked down too...  They where angry about the EU and immigration for years and the Labour party labelled them idiots and racists.   Much in the same way you just said they are too stupid to think for themselves so do what the daily rag tells them...

This is kind of Labours problem.  Its become a party that thinks its better than the people they want to vote for them.

yeah but all the reasons they are angry at the eu and immigrants is propaganda from right leaning parties. And yeah I think some people passively read news and believe far too much without evidence or checking multiple sources. The only reason to hate immigrants is because you have deep prejudice or a political party and newspapers have spent years giving credit to the theory that all of the uks problems lie in the EU and Immigration when in reality the problems lie within our country.

I hate the idea that you should respect everyone and their political view equally when that political view is damaging, misguided and won't solve anything to address. Which we are already seeing as Brexit causes more and more problems and Delivery Drivers are short staffed because of immigration rules and brexit, that's just the tip of the iceberg. 

I respect anyone who has a legitimate view not motivated by racism, xenophobia or misplace patriotism.

You wouldn't call someone who supports Q-anon smart, so yeah if you're a working class person voting tory, especially if you are voting for them  as a protest against labour then sorry you're dumb, you just are, you don't understand who you're voting for. or haven't been bothered to. 

But that's just me, tired of years of political discourse we pretend both sides are as bad as each other, when left leaning politic is about making life better for everyone and conservativism literally in the name is about favouring as few people as possible.    

EDIT: Give me any legitimate reason people should be against immigration or the EU that hasn't been proven to be a lie or false or fallen apart. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by ace56blaa

[Lizzim]

6 minutes ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

Well said Nic 👊

 

I would have voted for her if I had seen this 39 minutes ago.  But I'm not in that constituency.  It's an incredibly diverse area and has very specific issues in some areas which haven't changed in half a century at least.  

Shameless plug for an article by my niece, https://www.huckmag.com/art-and-culture/a-gritty-portrait-of-a-diverse-community-in-glasgow/#container

 

[DeanoL]

44 minutes ago, BobWillis2 said:

Labour will one day realise that this country does not want a left wing government, never has and never will. The momentum years will be the biggest mistake they ever made. 
 

Perhaps. But at that point people like you will realise that not everyone who does want a left-wing government in this country necessarily has "marginally left-leaning centrism" as their second choice. Frankly, to get through the environmental and economic ruin we're going to be facing in the coming decades, strong decisive government will be needed. And while I really, really want that to be a left-wing government, if it has to be a right wing one then so be it. 

 

[ace56blaa]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

A simple one would be to talk to the plasterer who saw opportunities and pay stagnation due to the influx of eastern European labour.  It happened and it caused people to struggle for work.  It might not affect you and you might think its not a big deal when you consider all the benefits the EU brings.  But to that guy, it meant everything...

Its one pin prick example of a whole mountain of issues you can't simply just dismiss.

Oh ffs, "THEY TOOK OUR JOBS" is the biggest and most damaging mischaracterisation of the immigration issue. Yep people will pay immigrants a lot less to do jobs, is that the fault of the immigrant or the Boss hiring that person, deciding to exploit the system, or is it the fault of the free market which allow businesses to disregard the rights of the contractor, to undercut their prices and seek cheaper labour where there is some, 

Or is the issue there are to do with workers rights, and the way the tory party have stripped those away over the years and Labour is historically the party that are trying to increase workers rights and called out the tories for gouging benefit for people who do find themselves out of work. 

But the Tories and daily rags offer the simple scapegoat explanation, it's the immigrants fault, they are too blame for also probably being exploiting by their employer because they are used to having low paying jobs in this country because historically immigrants are more likely to be willing to do those jobs, most people would rather believe immigrant deserve to be stopped from coming into the country because of the predatory tactics of modern capitalism, and like I already said because of the wage cap, there's already tons of jobs that cannot get staff because immigrants cannot do them anymore, Delivery Drivers, the NHS, places immigrants have historically served our country and yet they still are short staffed. 

One piece of anecdotal evidence. - The man's got a right to feel hard done by but if he puts the blame on immigration than he is misinformed

[squirrelarmy]

9 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Perhaps. But at that point people like you will realise that not everyone who does want a left-wing government in this country necessarily has "marginally left-leaning centrism" as their second choice. Frankly, to get through the environmental and economic ruin we're going to be facing in the coming decades, strong decisive government will be needed. And while I really, really want that to be a left-wing government, if it has to be a right wing one then so be it. 

 

It’s all about finding that nice area in between both sides. It’s not perfect for everyone but gives a little bit of compromise so things can actually work. 
 

There’s a name for this position but I can’t quite think of it …..

Edited May 6, 2021 by squirrelarmy

[ace56blaa]

7 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Also the uncomfortable reality is that large part of the working class red wall are racist, xenophobic and have misplaced patriotism.  Having grown up on a council estate I can vouch for that.  Brexit largely was fuelled by this no doubt.  But the harsh reality is a lot of Labour voters voted for Brexit and don't see the Labour as a match for their thinking anymore.

Uncomfortable reality ?   The Tory party have been a better fit now for a while and its been shown with Brexit AND the collapse of the red wall at the last election.

Labour need to win these peoples votes - but you are better than them right ?

Good luck!

At the end of the day, Labour shouldn't want the votes of anyone xenophobic or racist, no political party should, that's where the problems start. - But I don't think the people themselves are to blame, yes I can get mad because we live in an era of free information where you have to be completely brainwashed to not be able to easily access the information to show you how misguided immigration fear and racism is and I can put the blame in social media sites that prey on these people, making them never need to leave one website to get their "news" helping people fall down conspiratory rabbit holes. I do think some of the responsibility falls on the individual to educate themselves and I think if you ignore that responsibility, yes I do see you as bit dumb and yes I absolutely will say I'm better than racist and xenophobes cause that is a low low bar. 

I also think many people are just misguided and probably wouldn't hold many of those views if they were expsed to new people and ideas. I have a friend from UNI who started out as a UKIP supporting christian homophobe, yet his family immigrated from Jordan, he was brainwashed cause he grew up in a town of football hooligans and he realized that as soon as he came to uni and met people outside his hometown. - I think many people are good at heart and just don't have the time to be political, but in that case you shouldn't be spouting political views on the internet to other people, if you yourself are ill informed. - 

 

[Ozanne]

10 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

It’s all about finding that nice area in between both sides. It’s not perfect for everyone but gives a little bit of compromise so things can actually work. 
 

There’s a name for this position but I can’t quite think of it …..

Middleist?

[SwedgeAntilles]

17 minutes ago, Lizzim said:

I would have voted for her if I had seen this 39 minutes ago.  But I'm not in that constituency.  It's an incredibly diverse area and has very specific issues in some areas which haven't changed in half a century at least.  

Shameless plug for an article by my niece, https://www.huckmag.com/art-and-culture/a-gritty-portrait-of-a-diverse-community-in-glasgow/#container

 

Good read that, thanks for sharing 👍. Fantastic photos too 

[steviewevie]

17 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

It’s all about finding that nice area in between both sides. It’s not perfect for everyone but gives a little bit of compromise so things can actually work. 
 

There’s a name for this position but I can’t quite think of it …..

libDem.

[ace56blaa]

4 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

You miss the point entirely!

It doesn't matter if its not the immigrants fault, it doesn't matter if he is misinformed in your eyes...

The reality to him is his job has gone and he is going to vote for the guy who is going to bring it back and fix the issue as he sees it.

You come along with Champagne ways, University education, smart arse condescending tone looking all like Kier Stammer mocking him with your "THEY TOOK OUR JOBS" and the guy from the council estate in Burnley tells you to sod off and goes and votes for Boris.

Labour lost the room a very long time ago and people with your thinking are a large part of the problem.

 

I did fucking film studies at University, I grew up in poverty,  Was left without a stable home when my mum went to prison when I was in secondary school and I haven't had a job above 9 pound a hour in my entire life. Fuck your assumptions. The fact that you think I have to be a rich snob to hold my views shows more about your predujices than mine. 
Also I don't blindly support labour, my views are closer to liberal democrats or the green party.

I don't have a problem with working class people, i have a problem with racists and with tories. That fact you think they are one in the same again is a problem. 

If you hold these racist and xenophobic views in this current era, after all that has happened the last century and beyond then yeah I have a problem with you. - But I have more of problem with people on here or similar places that defend the tories or stuff like brexit when they clearly have the free time and agency to educate themselves. 

And again, the problem always seems to fall at labours feet. - Labour should pander to these racists and xenophobes should they? Why is it not the conservatives should not be allowed to spout unfiltered lies about immigrations and brexit that create more racism and division. 

Remember when Nigel Farage false claimed Turkish immigrants were about to flood into the UK in the thousands and instead of being reprimanded for these dangerous lies, he was giving news interviews and media attention. 


 

 

[steviewevie]

15 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Middleist?

middle east?

[Ozanne]

12 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

middle east?

It always comes back to Blair with you doesn't it 😜 

[ace56blaa]

1 minute ago, Barry Fish said:

The fact you went to university at all puts you in a different world than much of the working class In your average council estate.

Its hilarious how you don't get it  🙂

That seems a bizarre take, no? Since most people like myself on low income families can get most of tuition and rent covered by student loans. I had good teachers and a good school yes, that's a advantage to be encourage to go to uni, but i didn't get in because i had enough money, in fact part of the decision was that at the time it seemed cheaper. more doable then trying to rent a house and get a job in my hometown. 

Anyway the schooling system and the lack of funding for school in working class areas is another reason to vote against Tories and their push to privatize many public school or make them academies. 

And again I am not judging working class people as a whole! something you keep ignore, I am judging the racist and xenophobic ones, not the working man who has no time for politic or no time to research but if you are posting all over facebook all day about brexit and immigrants than you clearly have the time to educate yourself, but just don't want to. 

Should I not judge people for that, if we have no accountability for our views and actions and just say it's okay that they're racist because they are working class than what is the point in anything, what is the point in politics, if we are not holding people to the basic standards of human decency, 

yes we can examine the conditions that lead to these views but like i keep saying, then why does that lie at the feet of the opposition rather than the people creating those conditions, The Tory parties purposely spread lies and misinformation to keep their voter base voting for them, Someone isn't just racist cause they are poor, they are racist because of systemic problems, that right wing leaning people call woke performance or virtual signalling if you try to call our those problems. 

What is your solution? What is the point of anything if I can't criticize the very things that lead to racism and bigotry without you saying "but the working class is like this" so nothing will change. 

I am criticizing those things for that exact reason I want it to change. You solution can't be for the left leaning party to start pandering to racists, cause that only makes the problem worse. 

[ace56blaa]

Anyway I'm signing off for tonight, tired of being literally a working class person told they don't understand working class people just because i don't fit into their incredibly narrow view of what a working class person is. We haven't gone into the fact that many british citizen who are minorities who are working class are sidelined and never in this discussion, we should pander to the racists who want to deport people who were born in this country.

That's not a conversation worth having anymore. entertaining these notions of xenophobia as real political points is the problem. Saying we should respect both sides when one is literally a party of maniacs who couldn't care less about the people vote for them, I care about the people who vote for them, i want them to get better education. I want them to have better living conditions, it's not their fault, 

 

[Ozanne]

 

 

[ace56blaa]

1 hour ago, Barry Fish said:

It's funny to hear you melt.  

I think it's yourself who has a narrow view.  Boy done good and gone to university - the ones left behind are distance memory who you like to forget.  You said as much.  

The reality is... they are people too with a vote and Labour needs them.

What are you on about, boy has not done good, like I said I went to Uni for film studies, and like I also said I'm working on less than 9 pound an hour in hospitality in my home town, Uni didn't help me, I passed got a 2:1, no one is hiring me on my uni grade alone for film studies. I do understand I have more privilege than some by going to Uni, because simply getting out your home town for 3 years is enough to open your mind. 

I said nothing about people left behind who I liked to forget? I'm still friends with the majority of people I was friends with in secondary school. I even told you how I have had friends who have had racist views in the past and I'm still friends with them today, because the best way to teach people is to talk  to them. Like I said I don't think those views are entirely their fault, but I wouldn't say there's no responsibility to change those views,

You think I should give racists (who again, I am not saying all working class people are racist, or even most of them, as I have explained, it seems to be you who are making that generalization.)

Also you have taken every opportunity to attack my character or my status, because of assumptions you are making about me for the simple fact I went to university or that I'm writing smartassedly. Again working class is not synonymous with low intelligence or grammar, that is a generalisation you are making. 

I am attacking racist tendencies, which I infact specified that I am more angry with people who have privilege or time to spare or access to the internet not being able to inform themselves, or who still come to conclusio nthat some races should be allowed to live here simply based on the colour of their skin. 

As for melting, i love that, I love the idea that you imagine me getting redfaced behind my keyboard unable to contain my anger, when in reality i read your message and respond accordingly, That's the ting  I've always find funny about trolls they like to think that the person they are trolling is sad and defeated by their words because they are taking the time to respond and get riled up, when the troll has to expend just as much time and effort and caring as the person being trolled. Or they just don't believe what they are saying, are a nasty human being just looking for reactions of the strangers on the internet. 

Not that I think you're a troll, but you do always seem to illustrate you political or covid opinions by attacking other posters rather than attacking their argument. 

 

1 hour ago, Barry Fish said:

I am trying to point out the reality of Labours problem.

Me and you are probably politically on the same page.  But to think our political ideals are in line with the average working class guy who has always been the core of Labour is silly.  To pretend Labour exist without this type of voter is silly.  It suggest Labour shouldn't want their vote is silly.  To pretend a lot of worming class council estates don't have a large make up of people who you don't like is silly.

What is the solution?  I don't think there is one for Labour any time soon.  They have to let Brexit be, embrace it, more Britian first, more of a focus on the worker over the obsession with benefits.  All that is possible while still being socialist.

You solution may work, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, to not criticize it, to think it's utterly stupid to have to embrace Brexit, a lie that is hurting tons of the very people who voted for it. - Or embrace nationalism and britain first, that only serves to give more credence and entitlement to views that are harmful to everyone. - To allow racism and xenophobia to run rampant in this country, pretending there's no such thing as institutional racism to not scare Tory voters. - How can anyone say let bygones be bygones when those bygones are literally at the detriment to immigrants and minorities in this country. That is hold up a status quo that we shouldn't hold. 

I understand your argument is about the best easiest way for labour to win more voters, a cynical take that only treats politics as a game, rather than addressing and solving the problems that lead to the situation we are in now. - Also we haven't addressed this whole how a large majority of tory voters are 60 + year olds, deciding the future for our generations. - The majority of which are likely to be more well off that our generation and have had 60+ years to decide to gave basic human compassion to all other people and yet fail too, however I'm some supposed to feel bad if I have a go at racists

 https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/10/31/2019-general-election-demographics-dividing-britai
 

[Matt42]

5 hours ago, ace56blaa said:

Any flaw listed for labour on here is fair enough, but almost always is worse on the Tories side. 

Like someone says Labour is only soundbites. But Tories are in power and have the power to do something but still Boris only offer empty platitudes for the most part. Or sticks to ridiculous promises to the detriment of the country. Like Brexit is done but every tory talking point about brexit was a lie. Control our borders? they didn't control our borders to stop a flipping pandemic from ripping through the nation. 

"Labour has too much in fighting" - Boris and Dom Cum squabbled like children, they are all blackmailing each other, remember when everyone thought Gavin Williamson was gonna get fired and then he posted an ominous photo of himself sitting next to a ledger and a whip. Literally mafia style tactic, they probably all have on each other. 

"Labour are anti-Semitic" - The Tories are historically racist, filed a report that suggested there's no racism in the UK. Boris himself has said horrible horrible things about gay people and minorities. 

"Labour over no vision of the future beyond the tories are corrupt" - The conservatives literally keep saying stuff like "we are getting on with handling the coronavirus" then unnessecerily let thousands of people die to open shops before christmas. They say they are levelling up the north, but didn't give a shit about them when their cases were too high in the summer and locked them down for month and then when the north was finally getting better they let the oxford variant spread through the entire country. 

"Labour and Starmer don't actually do anything beyond criticizing the government" - Well, what is the opposition supposed to do beyond that, they are not in power, they can't make laws, they campaign for independent enquiries, constantly offered to work bipartisan with the tories, called them out on the second wave in october. - Starmer is wishy washy but he does well in PMQs finding creative ways to make boris look like an idiot despite knowing he wont answer the question. He constantly is posting his plan for recovery and jobs and visiting parts of the country. 

"Labour just want to spend public money" - Can't really make that criticism whilst we are in the pandemic and the tories are using public money for furlough, self employment help, universal credit uplifts. The exact things Labour would want to do. Yep it's an emergency but they are still doing it. And not to mention using it for failed contracts, ppe etc with their mates, the leaks we have seen probably just being the tip of the iceberg. 

Like Labour is for sure hugely flawed at the moment, but nearly every criticism thrown at them could be thrown at the tories tenfold. 

For so reason though people find Boris and his merry gang's corruption and racism "charismatic" and Keith is probably too boring for them. - In reality Boris is the biggest buffoon as they come, about as Charismatic as a dying chimp, I see why the country pity votes for him, but I would rather my politicians boring , then complaining about "Wokeness" and virtual signalling when they are biggest charades going 

But you're forgetting that when tories fight 

CONS +10