When will this shit end?

[aj6658]

5 minutes ago, zero000 said:

 

Seeing stuff like this on Twitter is making my blood boil.  There will be an acceptable number of deaths from covid, just like we accept the risk from Flu. It’s also not true that people don’t experience long term damage from flu. 

 

There seems to be a constant stream of criticism from the left without any actual answers about how we come out of the pandemic.  Any semblance of normality returning is seen as the government being reckless, without considering the alternatives. 

 

Think its unfair to say that any semblance of normality returning is seen as the government being reckless. also unfair to say its the left. 

The issue people have is have we learnt anything from the past?  The issue with opening up early is that its not going to be like last time. People have the safety net of the vaccine, hence we will see more reckless behaviour .

Also people are burnt out with lockdown so you're going to struggle to increase restrictions after this so we need to be comfortable that we can limit the spread.    

Edited February 13, 2021 by aj6658

[PM87]

4 minutes ago, Chapple12345 said:

 

^ This. Yesterday's news was all about how even when the elderly and vulnerable are vaccinated, there will be no hugs for granny. 

While I enjoy reading this thread for the most part (is enjoy the right word when it's about a global pandemic?), it does follow the same pattern every time something is announced/ leaked or a change is coming. So much in-fighting. Healthy debate is a good thing but the tone that is adopted sometimes can be so incredibly patronising, on both sides of whatever debate is going on.

Literally nothing has been officially announced yet and it's still several weeks until anything will even start to be actioned. 

[zero000]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

you really getting upset about this on twitter? I mean, there's a load of shit on there which will tell you what you want to hear...you just need to know who to follow...

I don’t want to live in an echo chamber and I am very much left leaning. I just see a lot of criticism without solutions. 

[zero000]

5 minutes ago, aj6658 said:

Think its unfair to say that any semblance of normality returning is seen as the government being reckless. also unfair to say its the left. 

The issue people have is have we learnt anything from the past?  The issue with opening up early is that its not going to be like last time. People have the safety net of the vaccine, hence we will see more reckless behaviour .

 

I feel like it’s been a consistent narrative than has permeated this thread too. Even the vaccine delivery has received a lot of flack on here.

A counter point to that is that it won’t be like last time as the vaccinations will prevent hospitalisations and death. So may mitigate any increased risky behaviours. 

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, zero000 said:

I don’t want to live in an echo chamber and I am very much left leaning. I just see a lot of criticism without solutions. 

the argument about not treating like flu but like measles or something? I guess this is the zero covid thing, get cases down to very low levels...and then invest heavily in test and trace to keep very low...not sure how feasible.

At moment whichever way we go there doesn't seem to be a nice solution. Treat like flu, mass vaccinations every year and 10k+ deaths every year...or try and suppress which would mean further restrictions especially on travel in and out of the country and then within if any outbreaks.

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

28 minutes ago, aj6658 said:

Too right. if you cant be honest with yourself, how can you make an honest argument. Shows a basic ability to think critically. These are the same people who would be convinced by BoJos 3 word campaigns. 

Think this is the issue with politics these days. You're so ingrained to a political party that you cant be honest when yours has made a bad decision.

I've never voted Tory in my life. 

23 minutes ago, aj6658 said:

You are sweeping it under the rug by saying wait till the end. We can see the results here and now. Stop acting like any good from the next 6 months balances out the equation because it doesn't. Read my list again. All of those things were political decisions. They chose to starve kids and then reverse, they chose to open up for Christmas (but other religious holidays got 24 hours notice), they chose to delay the circuit breaker, they chose to send children to schools for one day saying it was say and the very next day change their tune. 

 

ill tell the 100k dead that Robert Prosineckis Lighter said you were gonna die anyway. You do realise how much of bellend you're sounding?  

How is how hand any different?!?! What are you on about? 

Sadly some of those deaths would have happened anyway. Has the government made decisions that have cost lives? Undoubtedly. Has it made decisions that have saved lives? Undoubtedly. Even labour would have made decisions that cost lives... And saved lives. That's sadly par for the course in situations like this. 

All I am saying is at the moment you can only judge our handling of the pandemic upto this point in time. 

If in 6 months time we have had a minor increase in death, but Belgium continues to grow, France and Germany make decisions that mean their death toll catches or even over takes us at that point is our response and 'utter failure'? 

To expect a Government not to make political decisions is ridiculous, it's what Governments do, and Labour would make politically influenced decisions too.

[Ozanne]

Several ideas have been floated, I said to take things slower and gave examples of that.

I’d be interested to see what Labour think of this proposed plan. 

[Toilet Duck]

1 minute ago, zero000 said:

I feel like it’s been a consistent narrative than has permeated this thread too. Even the vaccine delivery has received a lot of flack on here.

A counter point to that is that it won’t be like last time as the vaccinations will prevent hospitalisations and death. So may mitigate any increased risky behaviours. 

I would also add that while long Covid is undoubtedly a real problem, we have yet to receive reports of it being an issue among those that were vaccinated and subsequently developed mild to moderate disease on any of the vaccine trials (and some of those folk caught the virus last summer). It may be that focus on the trial reporting is elsewhere, but if there was a big signal for it in the data, you can bet that the academics at Oxford would be writing papers about it. I’m hopeful that mass vaccination will not only cut hospitalisations and death, but also the morbidity associated with catching the virus at all. We’ll have to wait and see, but I think it looks promising all round.

[aj6658]

Just now, zero000 said:

I feel like it’s been a consistent narrative than has permeated this thread too. Even the vaccine delivery has received a lot of flack on here.

A counter point to that is that it won’t be like last time as the vaccinations will prevent hospitalisations and death. So may mitigate any increased risky behaviours. 

Maybe the vaccine delivery got a bit of flack at the very beginning but all I've seen since is praise. Ill. be honest, I didn't think 15m would be possible but in all fairness, everything the government did to that point was a failure. 

 

Not sure the exact case numbers but you will still have alot of people being hospitalised if we were to open in the next month. 

 

Personally (and I think you will hate my position) is to maintain lockdown till March just so we can vaccinate those at risk and so when we come out its a guaranteed downward spiral. Also with the SA variant, its easier to handle if were locked down. This is coming from someone who has really struggled with this latest lockdown but I think once its over, we won't have another lockdown or increases in restrictions. The issue was previously, we were too quick which caused further problems. 

 

[Ozanne]

16 minutes ago, aj6658 said:

Think its unfair to say that any semblance of normality returning is seen as the government being reckless. also unfair to say its the left. 

The issue people have is have we learnt anything from the past?  The issue with opening up early is that its not going to be like last time. People have the safety net of the vaccine, hence we will see more reckless behaviour .

Also people are burnt out with lockdown so you're going to struggle to increase restrictions after this so we need to be comfortable that we can limit the spread.    

The criticism is from all sides, it’s funny how the Tory backbenchers that are criticising their own government here get nearly no comment but if the opposition, oppose then they are in the wrong.

[Zoo Music Girl]

8 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Several ideas have been floated, I said to take things slower and gave examples of that.

I’d be interested to see what Labour think of this proposed plan. 

Genuine question (and not having a go as broadly we are on the same page most of the time!), but if you think they should go slower, how did you think Glastonbury would happen? I've never been able to square your cautious approach with being in the 100% club. How did you see it going between April and June to allow it? Or have you changed your mind since?

[Zoo Music Girl]

8 minutes ago, aj6658 said:

Maybe the vaccine delivery got a bit of flack at the very beginning but all I've seen since is praise. Ill. be honest, I didn't think 15m would be possible but in all fairness, everything the government did to that point was a failure. 

 

Not sure the exact case numbers but you will still have alot of people being hospitalised if we were to open in the next month. 

 

Personally (and I think you will hate my position) is to maintain lockdown till March just so we can vaccinate those at risk and so when we come out its a guaranteed downward spiral. Also with the SA variant, its easier to handle if were locked down. This is coming from someone who has really struggled with this latest lockdown but I think once its over, we won't have another lockdown or increases in restrictions. The issue was previously, we were too quick which caused further problems. 

 

I don't think anyone is saying end lockdown before March though are they? 8th March schools seems to be the date most people expect to start unlocking.

I agree with you though. They've nailed the vaccine rollout, but everything else has been a shit show. It would be embarrassing if it wasn't so tragic. Christ knows where we would be without a vaccine.

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

12 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Several ideas have been floated, I said to take things slower and gave examples of that.

I’d be interested to see what Labour think of this proposed plan. 

I'd be interested to see Labours approach to anything.

Corbyn was a bit out there for me (they still got my vote though), but at least he nailed his colours to the mast. 

[Ozanne]

Just now, Zoo Music Girl said:

Genuine question (and not having a go as broadly we are on the same page most of the time!), but if you think they should go slower, how did you think Glastonbury would happen? I've never been able to square your cautious approach with being in the 100% club. How did you see it going between April and June to allow it? Or have you changed your mind since?

I thought they could get events on with mass-testing in place which would essentially have meant everyone on site would have been as COVID free as possible. Originally I could potentially see a route to events in the summer through slow easing of restrictions in the Spring. Obviously cases are still too high for that now and it wouldn’t be feasible especially with a the build time for the site. I’m big enough to admit I got that one wrong but at some stage there was a path to it. 

[Zoo Music Girl]

Just now, Ozanne said:

I thought they could get events on with mass-testing in place which would essentially have meant everyone on site would have been as COVID free as possible. Originally I could potentially see a route to events in the summer through slow easing of restrictions in the Spring. Obviously cases are still too high for that now and it wouldn’t be feasible especially with a the build time for the site. I’m big enough to admit I got that one wrong but at some stage there was a path to it. 

Fair enough. Forgot about the testing thing.

[efcfanwirral]

18 minutes ago, PM87 said:

^ This. Yesterday's news was all about how even when the elderly and vulnerable are vaccinated, there will be no hugs for granny. 

While I enjoy reading this thread for the most part (is enjoy the right word when it's about a global pandemic?), it does follow the same pattern every time something is announced/ leaked or a change is coming. So much in-fighting. Healthy debate is a good thing but the tone that is adopted sometimes can be so incredibly patronising, on both sides of whatever debate is going on.

Literally nothing has been officially announced yet and it's still several weeks until anything will even start to be actioned. 

I personally think healthy debate can be emotional too and that people are sometimes a bit too sensitive to tone. But I guess it does affect some people 

2 minutes ago, Toilet Duck said:

I would also add that while long Covid is undoubtedly a real problem, we have yet to receive reports of it being an issue among those that were vaccinated and subsequently developed mild to moderate disease on any of the vaccine trials (and some of those folk caught the virus last summer). It may be that focus on the trial reporting is elsewhere, but if there was a big signal for it in the data, you can bet that the academics at Oxford would be writing papers about it. I’m hopeful that mass vaccination will not only cut hospitalisations and death, but also the morbidity associated with catching the virus at all. We’ll have to wait and see, but I think it looks promising all round.

Been meaning to ask you for a bit, what are your thoughts on the definition of long covid and the reporting around it?

To me it sounds like there are two versions, one that leaves people floored and unable to get out of bed for months, and one that has a definition of "ongoing symptoms after a certain time" which can include a cough for example, which regular diseases can leave lingering for a bit. There seems to be no talk of the severity levels so there's no real way to know which is which in the numbers.

But people seem to be freaking out and assuming everyone comes under the first group, when presumably the vast majority are the second? 

[aj6658]

3 minutes ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

I've never voted Tory in my life. 

Sadly some of those deaths would have happened anyway. Has the government made decisions that have cost lives? Undoubtedly. Has it made decisions that have saved lives? Undoubtedly. Even labour would have made decisions that cost lives... And saved lives. That's sadly par for the course in situations like this. 

All I am saying is at the moment you can only judge our handling of the pandemic upto this point in time. 

If in 6 months time we have had a minor increase in death, but Belgium continues to grow, France and Germany make decisions that mean their death toll catches or even over takes us at that point is our response and 'utter failure'? 

To expect a Government not to make political decisions is ridiculous, it's what Governments do, and Labour would make politically influenced decisions too.

Well you do sound like an apologist for this government, 

"some of those deaths would have happened anyway" - But what of all the deaths that wouldn't of happened if we made better decisions?  New Zealand has 25 deaths. 25! They are also having gigs, parties and sports events. Still waiting for the reasons you think we are so different to NZ that we could never achieve what they have.

Can you provide examples of decisions that the government made that saved lives? These decisions should be ones which wasn't a U turn (E.g. Schools)  or a large delay in coming to the decision (e.g. circuit breakers). The only ones I can think of are sorting out the vaccine supply earlier than the EU and extending to 12 weeks (high risk play). The good decisions now don't balance out the numerous previously.

Think it sad that it is acceptable that government makes political decisions. We didn't need to open for Christmas. 25% of the deaths occurred in January. 

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

1 minute ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Christ knows where we would be without a vaccine.

Trying to let people catch it while ensuring the NHS can cope through cyclical lockdowns I suspect. 

Would have been a horrendous few years. 

[Ozanne]

1 minute ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

I'd be interested to see Labours approach to anything.

Corbyn was a bit out there for me (they still got my vote though), but at least he nailed his colours to the mast. 

Labour have called for several changes through this pandemic such as:

- extension of furlough

- circuit break lockdown

- clarity for businesses in regards to opening up

- extension of eviction ban

- cancellation of Christmas relaxations

- Test and Trace into the hands of the NHS

- Vaccination for teachers during half term

- Free school meals for kids

You might not agree with them but those are just a few of what Labour have been calling for. 

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

I'd be interested to see Labours approach to anything.

Corbyn was a bit out there for me (they still got my vote though), but at least he nailed his colours to the mast. 

Labour's in a tricky situation with this pandemic...but post pandemic is when they really need to say what they're for. I think Starmer is going to start outlining policies and stuff next week as he is under pressure to do so...but will people listen? will anyone be interested? They just want to know when schools are back and when pubs are open.

[aj6658]

3 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

I don't think anyone is saying end lockdown before March though are they? 8th March schools seems to be the date most people expect to start unlocking.

I agree with you though. They've nailed the vaccine rollout, but everything else has been a shit show. It would be embarrassing if it wasn't so tragic. Christ knows where we would be without a vaccine.

No one ever mentions how Boris literally said "take it on the chin" and let the virus pass through the population or that he would shake everyones hands in the hospital.

 

If this was a labour Government, this would be played on repeat. This government has gotten off easy by the media. As much as I hate Piers Morgan, he does ask the tough questions in this pandemic and tries to hold them to account. 

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

Trying to let people catch it while ensuring the NHS can cope through cyclical lockdowns I suspect. 

Would have been a horrendous few years. 

we'd probably be in the same place as much of europe...so things would be improving anyway, and maybe we'd be much stricter on borders and have more reliance on test/trace/isolate.

[steviewevie]

spring starts tomorrow, going to be scorchio by midweek (well, not fuckin freezing like it is today).

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Labour have called for several changes through this pandemic such as:

- extension of furlough

- circuit break lockdown

- clarity for businesses in regards to opening up

- extension of eviction ban

- cancellation of Christmas relaxations

- Test and Trace into the hands of the NHS

- Vaccination for teachers during half term

- Free school meals for kids

You might not agree with them but those are just a few of what Labour have been calling for. 

they often get a load of shit for doing this...not being helpful and supportive, playing politics etc. Labour seem to get more flack than the govt sometimes...same as with brexit.

[Ozanne]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

they often get a load of shit for doing this...not being helpful and supportive, playing politics etc. Labour seem to get more flack than the govt sometimes...same as with brexit.

They really do, how dare they oppose a government when they are the opposition. Or they aren’t opposing enough when they vote for the government restrictions. 

6 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Labour's in a tricky situation with this pandemic...but post pandemic is when they really need to say what they're for. I think Starmer is going to start outlining policies and stuff next week as he is under pressure to do so...but will people listen? will anyone be interested? They just want to know when schools are back and when pubs are open.

Same as the above some people will moan Starmer hasn’t offered any policies then next week some will say why do we care we are in a pandemic.