Emily vs. The Gammons

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

1 hour ago, gigpusher said:

Hard to know how to react to a man telling every woman in this thread that sexism doesn't exist and that equality is totally there despite every woman telling him they have experienced sexism. 

I really hope he doesn't have a daughter. 

I never said that sexism doesn't exist! I have a daughter actually, and I let her decide what she wears and plays with. She choose dolls sometimes, which is fine, sometimes she wants to play with Lego, which is also okay. I don't really see whether I have a daughter or not matters, but I guess personal attacks is the only leg you're standing on at the moment.

2 minutes ago, Xeph1995 said:

@MEGATRONICMEATWAGON do you have any female friends?

Yup, plenty.

[Zoo Music Girl]

I think you are looking for something overt, such as laws against women doing things, when really this is a covert process, much of it a hangover from days gone by.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

2 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

 

I was being ironic...

[Display-Name]

6 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Again, not said anything about how women feel. Just that they choose subjects at uni based on the subjects they want to study, not because "societal norms" or other jargon tells them to study. I'm the one supporting women being free to choose here.

And to some extent you're right. I'm not here to argue with you because you've stated many times sexism does exist and is a bad thing (believe it or not some people deny both those things). I'm just adding to your points which might make you see things in another way. If that changes your opinion or not is up to you to decide, but you need to understand that women being free to choose subjects is not as simple as it seems. Yes, on the outside, women can choose any subject they like. However, when you add in that some women feel unsupported, discouraged, intimidated and unwelcome in many areas, that will largely put them off in a way that it does not for men. I hope we can agree on this and both make sure we're doing our part by always promoting equal opportunities at all times for everyone. Likewise if a man wants to be a dress designer, or ballet dancer or something more traditionally female, he should never feel that he can't because of the way society has portrayed these activities.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

1 minute ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

I think you are looking for something overt, such as laws against women doing things, when really this is a covert process, much of it a hangover from days gone by.

There are undoubtedly sexists out there and they should be questioned and held up if they spout some idiotic message like "women shouldn't be engineers" or whatever, but likewise, women shouldn't make fun of men just because they bake a cake. I've had women call me gay just because I like to bake cakes before. Other men I know have also had derisory comments aimed at them because they're seen as different. We're all in this together. I feel like my message has been lost now because of all the people claiming me being a "man" has formed my opinion, as if it were a disease or something. Anyway, I hope everyone can see that I support women choosing and studying exactly what they want to do.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

1 minute ago, Display-Name said:

And to some extent you're right. I'm not here to argue with you because you've stated many times sexism does exist and is a bad thing (believe it or not some people deny both those things). I'm just adding to your points which might make you see things in another way. If that changes your opinion or not is up to you to decide, but you need to understand that women being free to choose subjects is not as simple as it seems. Yes, on the outside, women can choose any subject they like. However, when you add in that some women feel unsupported, discouraged, intimidated and unwelcome in many areas, that will largely put them off in a way that it does not for men. I hope we can agree on this and both make sure we're doing our part by always promoting equal opportunities at all times for everyone. Likewise if a man wants to be a dress designer, or ballet dancer or something more traditionally female, he should never feel that he can't because of the way society has portrayed these activities.

Thanks for the comment and I totally agree. Anyone should be free to do anything they want in business, life, love - even if they choose to be a sterotype, that's okay

[gigpusher]

1 minute ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

I never said that sexism doesn't exist! I have a daughter actually, and I let her decide what she wears and plays with. She choose dolls sometimes, which is fine, sometimes she wants to play with Lego, which is also okay. I don't really see whether I have a daughter or not matters, but I guess personal attacks is the only leg you're standing on at the moment.

Yup, plenty.

If you have a daughter and are blind to how gender stereotyping exists in everything I am absolutely amazed. I think it is far worse than when I was a kid. Lego marketed at girls is pink and lilac and most importantly not as complex as the stuff marketed at boys. 

The messages the media and other people give children influences their thinking and their self-belief and the lack of role models in an area absolutely affects peoples decisions. If you have never seen a woman do a job and you are a girl you are less likely to think it is a job you and or should do. Other men see that these things exist why you can't see it is what is remarkable. If you honestly think that at the age of 17 and 18 everyone is making the best choices about their career path then you are mistaken. If I knew what I know now I would absolutely have gone into a different field completely. We live in a world that is designed for men despite the fact that women also occupy 50% of it because of the fact that more men work in engineering, product design, medical research etc. 

 

[Display-Name]

1 minute ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Thanks for the comment and I totally agree. Anyone should be free to do anything they want in business, life, love - even if they choose to be a sterotype, that's okay

Exactly. Unfortunately, as I hope I and others have shown effectively, this is not the case in our current society. I think that was why people were getting upset with your comments as you seemed to be suggesting that societal norms and pressures had little to no impact on what women choose to study (and thus likely end up with doing in their career). These absolutely do have an impact, but as we've both said, hopefully everyone can do their part to minimise/eradicate these things so that both men and women alike do have real freedom to choose.

[eFestivals]

20 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

But as Display-Name and countless others have tried to say, it's not just about the options being available - it's about all the other factors influencing whether someone takes them or not.

this ^^

(nicely summarised  )

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

10 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

If you have a daughter and are blind to how gender stereotyping exists in everything I am absolutely amazed. I think it is far worse than when I was a kid. Lego marketed at girls is pink and lilac and most importantly not as complex as the stuff marketed at boys. 

The messages the media and other people give children influences their thinking and their self-belief and the lack of role models in an area absolutely affects peoples decisions. If you have never seen a woman do a job and you are a girl you are less likely to think it is a job you and or should do. Other men see that these things exist why you can't see it is what is remarkable. If you honestly think that at the age of 17 and 18 everyone is making the best choices about their career path then you are mistaken. If I knew what I know now I would absolutely have gone into a different field completely. We live in a world that is designed for men despite the fact that women also occupy 50% of it because of the fact that more men work in engineering, product design, medical research etc. 

 

Okay then, if marketing of Lego and clothes etc is soooo bad for young girls/tweens/teens these days, could you please explain why more women than ever are getting better A-Levels than boys, why more women are going to university, and why in the age group between 18-40, women on average are paid a few percent more than men in a lot of areas of work? Please explain all of that happening, despite the horrendous torture of modern girls' childhoods.

[gigpusher]

19 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Okay then, if marketing of Lego and clothes etc is soooo bad for young girls/tweens/teens these days, could you please explain why more women than ever are getting better A-Levels than boys, why more women are going to university, and why in the age group between 18-40, women on average are paid a few percent more than men in a lot of areas of work? Please explain all of that happening, despite the horrendous torture of modern girls' childhoods.

The graduate pay gap is actually still in favour of men 

https://theboar.org/2019/04/graduate-gender-pay-gap-continues-widen/

https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/careers/what-do-graduates-do-and-earn/graduate-gender-pay-gap/

There are only a few small area where women earn more. 

The reason for better results etc is because girls work harder at school. 

[DeanoL]

27 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Okay then, if marketing of Lego and clothes etc is soooo bad for young girls/tweens/teens these days, could you please explain why more women than ever are getting better A-Levels than boys, why more women are going to university, and why in the age group between 18-40, women on average are paid a few percent more than men in a lot of areas of work? Please explain all of that happening, despite the horrendous torture of modern girls' childhoods.

Because it’s getting better. Problem is “more women than ever” is not 50% and “a lot of areas of work” is not all of them.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

2 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

The reason for better results etc is because girls work harder at school. 

So, nothing to do with playing with pink barbies and pink Lego, then, or these gendered stereotype norms created by society?

Girls work hard and get better results at school because they're better at coursework. Before the 90s when it was more about the exam, boys did better, last minute crammers the lot of them. And then what happens after that? Girls are given a prospectus for college and then unis and they choose themselves what they want to do. Zilch to do with all the stuff you said earlier about pink this, and pink that.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

Just now, DeanoL said:

Because it’s getting better. Problem is “more women than ever” is not 50% and “a lot of areas of work” is not all of them.

Yeah, actually, 'more women than ever', means MORE girls going to uni than boys.

Where are all the women asking for equality on oil rigs and in the army, down the sewers and on construction sites? Not many concerned with that are there? Which is fine of course, because it's better that everyone has the freedom to choose what they want to do, instead of worrying about quotas. And just because I don't like the idea of having 50-50 balance everywhere, doesn't mean I support gender discrimination either, or believe there aren't situations of sexism.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Girls work hard and get better results at school because they're better at coursework. Before the 90s when it was more about the exam, boys did better, last minute crammers the lot of them

as someone who was schooled before the nineties, I'd say that's crap.   

[gigpusher]

4 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

So, nothing to do with playing with pink barbies and pink Lego, then, or these gendered stereotype norms created by society?

Girls work hard and get better results at school because they're better at coursework. Before the 90s when it was more about the exam, boys did better, last minute crammers the lot of them. And then what happens after that? Girls are given a prospectus for college and then unis and they choose themselves what they want to do. Zilch to do with all the stuff you said earlier about pink this, and pink that.

I was schooled in Ireland in the 90's when nothing went on coursework and everything was exams. I'm an excellent crammer. Despite having had a horrendour year leading up to my exams I was confiedently in the top 10% in the country apart from in Maths which I'd given up on for years!! 

Isn't it amazing that girls are achieving so much better than boys, going to uni etc yet still coming away with less money out of all of this. It's almost like there must be some systemic prejudice against them. 

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

as someone who was schooled before the nineties, I'd say that's crap.   

Not for me
 

5 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

I was schooled in Ireland in the 90's when nothing went on coursework and everything was exams. I'm an excellent crammer. Despite having had a horrendour year leading up to my exams I was confiedently in the top 10% in the country apart from in Maths which I'd given up on for years!! 

Isn't it amazing that girls are achieving so much better than boys, going to uni etc yet still coming away with less money out of all of this. It's almost like there must be some systemic prejudice against them. 

First part - okay? That's great for you, well done, but in general things were changed to give girls a better chance as they were better at coursework. That was a decision made by the government, not my "lived experience".

The second part has been disproven so many times. The pay gap is because women choose subjects that don't pay as well after they've graduated.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

The pay gap is because women choose subjects that don't pay as well after they've graduated.

Why do you think that is?

[VCK]

7 hours ago, gigpusher said:

Wow this thread is staggering!! If you are a white straight male please don't presume you know what it's like to be female and how you could end up having a totally equal life. The differences in how boys and girls are treated starts from before they are born and any woman who ends up in a male dominated profession is a fucking legend who has had to fight against so much shit for so long. 

 I personally don't know a woman who has not experienced some level of sexual assault. I had my first experience when I was 8 years old in a swimming pool when 2 grown men (in their 30's) offered to help my friend and I swim. I was perfectly capable of swimming but he just wanted to grope anyway. We got out of the pool pretty quickly. I've had men grope my breasts in front of me, try to kiss me without asking permission because they saw my 18 birthday badge and assumed (wrongly) that I would be pissed. They only apologised when my boyfriend came back. While watching my husband run a marathon a few years back a man stood behind me and rubbed himself up against me. It was really crowded and impossible for me to get out easily. 

I've been in offices where men dismiss women's idea and tell them to go make the tea. I've had male bosses who have taken the credit for my good ideas and gotten pay rises out of it too. I've worked in technical companies where I've never seen a man take minutes at a meeting even if they end up being taken by women in more senior positions. It's just not deemed man's work. 

I've seen the difference in how my nieces get greeted from my nephew and other male kids when they go to parties. Older people always tell girls they are pretty first or that they are dressed well whereas boys gets asked what are they doing. 

There was a very interesting programme on the BBC about it a couple of years back about how sexist perceptions affect children who were only about 8. 

 

The thing is sexism helps nobody. It's the reason for the high suicide rate for men. We should all want to become better people and honestly it really sickens me that people try to deny its existence. How about we try and change the world for the better for everyone. If a little bit of positive discrimination is needed in the short term, then so be it. 

Also, if you think things are bad for women in general, women of colour have it even worse. Having Janelle, Janet and Lizzo etc on the bill this year makes my heart soar. I hope they are epic and girls grow up thinking I can be that bad ass. 

 

 

That's fucked up, and your first story goes way beyond just sexism - it's straight up paedophilia. There's a lot of perverts out there.

I remember working in a shop and I served this girl (who was, admittedly, really pretty.) Some scruffy guy comes in and starts making comments at her about how fit she is. She's clearly uncomfortable and chooses to ignore him, so he says "yeah, I'm talking to you!" in a slightly aggressive tone. Maybe I should have said something to him, but I'm the sort of person who doesn't like to cause scenes when I'm at work.

But I am aware that this kind of thing does happen.

But re your opening sentence - I'm not sure what being white and straight has to do with it. Do black, Asian or gay men have a better understanding of being female, despite not actually being female, and having never experienced what you have?

Edited April 4, 2019 by VCK

[Zoo Music Girl]

18 minutes ago, VCK said:

That's fucked up, and your first story goes way beyond just sexism - it's straight up paedophilia. There's a lot of perverts out there.

I remember working in a shop and I served this girl (who was, admittedly, really pretty.) Some scruffy guy comes in and starts making comments at her about how fit she is. She's clearly uncomfortable and chooses to ignore him, so he says "yeah, I'm talking to you!" in a slightly aggressive tone. Maybe I should have said something to him, but I'm the sort of person who doesn't like to cause scenes when I'm at work.

But I am aware that this kind of thing does happen.

But re your opening sentence - I'm not sure what being white and straight has to do with it. Do black, Asian or gay men have a better understanding of being female, despite not actually being female, and having never experienced what you have?

This kind of thing (in the shop) is so common. Guy starts talking to you and you try to make it clear you're not interested but then they get aggressive. So many times in my life I have tried to walk the fine line between making it clear I don't fancy them and not making them angry, particularly when travelling alone.

Edit: don't know why I added record shop! 

Edited April 4, 2019 by Zoo Music Girl

[kalifire]

2 hours ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

I'm the one supporting women being free to choose here.

Yet you're also the one casually throwing around broad generalisations about women like you've just finished reading Jordan Peterson.

The era of hearing men explain the score about sexism in society, what women are like, and how we need to deal with it, is long gone. Our role is now to shut the fuck up and listen. To try and understand what it is people have been putting up with for so long without defaulting to 'that sounds awful, but I've never done that'. Not all men are sexist, but all men are part of a group who are advantaged by sexual politics and need to do what they can to try and amend that.

It's not about paying the price for people who acted differently from us, it's about appreciating that out status in society is not down to our hard work and effort in the same way it is for women, it's to acknowledge that society is bent towards us and that's fundamentally unfair, whether we perpetuated it or not.

[Zoo Music Girl]

9 minutes ago, kalifire said:

Yet you're also the one casually throwing around broad generalisations about women like you've just finished reading Jordan Peterson.

The era of hearing men explain the score about sexism in society, what women are like, and how we need to deal with it, is long gone. Our role is now to shut the fuck up and listen. To try and understand what it is people have been putting up with for so long without defaulting to 'that sounds awful, but I've never done that'. Not all men are sexist, but all men are part of a group who are advantaged by sexual politics and need to do what they can to try and amend that.

It's not about paying the price for people who acted differently from us, it's about appreciating that out status in society is not down to our hard work and effort in the same way it is for women, it's to acknowledge that society is bent towards us and that's fundamentally unfair, whether we perpetuated it or not.

Out of upvotes but THANK YOU.

[Kizzie]

8 hours ago, H.M.V said:

Jesus. Not enough eye rolls in the fucking world for some of this shit. 

Ooops sorry, once again forgot ladies don't fucking swear. 

Ah, H.M.V....I fucking love you

[Dave_c]

1 hour ago, kalifire said:

Yet you're also the one casually throwing around broad generalisations about women like you've just finished reading Jordan Peterson.

The era of hearing men explain the score about sexism in society, what women are like, and how we need to deal with it, is long gone. Our role is now to shut the fuck up and listen. To try and understand what it is people have been putting up with for so long without defaulting to 'that sounds awful, but I've never done that'. Not all men are sexist, but all men are part of a group who are advantaged by sexual politics and need to do what they can to try and amend that.

It's not about paying the price for people who acted differently from us, it's about appreciating that out status in society is not down to our hard work and effort in the same way it is for women, it's to acknowledge that society is bent towards us and that's fundamentally unfair, whether we perpetuated it or not.

Not sure they were broad generalisations since there were links to statistical data to back up what he was saying, just as Jordan Peterson does. Nobody is saying sexism doesn't exist, just that it doesn't exist to the extent that is being protrayed in this thread, where broad generalisations are indeed being made with no statistical data to back them up.

[H.M.V]

2 minutes ago, Dave_c said:

Not sure they were broad generalisations since there were links to statistical data to back up what he was saying, just as Jordan Peterson does. Nobody is saying sexism doesn't exist, just that it doesn't exist to the extent that is being protrayed in this thread, where broad generalisations are indeed being made with no statistical data to back them up.

. Of course you don't think its as bad as is portrayed in this thread, you refuse to listen and you're not a woman.