Are we In or Out?

[eFestivals]

Just now, siblin said:

Yeah and I'd agree with the view that theres still a lot of reform to be done in Turkey, but similar concerns exist for other candidates (and some of the more recent countries).

None of those others were (mostly) outside of geographic Europe and with a culture outside of the European norm, nor where they've historically been a big player.

Albania is probably considered the next 'worst' on the list, but that's more likely to provoke laughter than fear - but that's because it's not a powerful nation, nor is it a nation with a decent level of reporting around it where we get to follow local developments. I think it's quite reasonable to say we've all become aware in recent years of Turkey sliding in the opposite direction to what we'd prefer

i've been quick to dismiss things as 'just' racist at times, but right now I'm not sure it's helpful. If any of the leavers are going to be won to remain I doubt it's going to be by calling them racists, and from their side (whether really racist or not) they'll be thinking "those people don't understand what i'm thinking so their thinking can't be very clear".

 

Just now, siblin said:

Sadly i dont think peoples motivations are for turkey to improve their human rights etc, but more the fear that millions of turks are all of a sudden going to arrive on the south coast.  In that respect sadly I think turkey gets a disproportionate amount of focus.

But to some extent the two are strongly linked.

If you suggested to people their area might be 'swarmed' by human rights abusers they wouldn't warm to that idea much either, and current affairs causes there to be that sort of stereotypical view attached to Turks right now. There's things that are more than just skin colour and instead of skin colour with which to find (as a generality) some nationalities preferable to others.

 

Just now, siblin said:

As you say, membership criteria mandate that Turkey would look very different were it to join, and much less motivation for people to leave (in fact it could end up being the next costa del sol full of british expats, shudder the thought)

Yep.

Currently our news diet of Turkey is deteriorating human rights, trouble with Kurds, and fairly regular terrorist atrocities, plus the more recent issues around Syria. It's hard to get much that positive about Turkey from those.

If Turkey seriously aimed for membership (and, say, Syria was stabalised), we'd have at least a decade of stories of an improving situation within Turkey, and from that the hostilities individuals currently have towards Turkey would be lessened, and the idea of them as EU members far less scary.

If Turkey seriously went for membership, it'd work itself out over time I reckon.

(PS: have been to Turkey, I loved it, I thought the people were very pleasant and lovely. )

 

[majormajormajor]

On 08/06/2016 at 7:40 AM, Waapster said:

If you keep repeating this people might start to think you are a little bit racist. Turkey have applied to join. They have not been accepted. They are fucking light years away from being accepted and would have to overcome the Greek veto, let alone ours. But don't let the fact get in the way of trying to scare people about, of all people, the Turkish, many of whom have settled really well, certainly where I live.

Turkey is occupying 25% of the land of an EU member state. Until that problem is resolved (and there is no sign whatsoever that there is any appetite for that within the occupied country), there is probably something close to zero chance of Turkey becoming a member of the EU in my lifetime, and I was born in the 80s. It's a complete lie to suggest that this is even on the horizon.

[phillyfaddle]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

PS: have been to Turkey, I loved it, I thought the people were very pleasant and lovely.

 

Me too, several times. They generally are (with exceptions, like everywhere else). It's their government that stinks.

[BLTN]

7 hours ago, siblin said:

I've already read it.  

It's unsurprising the Economist would edge toward eurosceptic given position as an economic liberalism paper (read neo-liberal), after all who does weak government benefit if not the private sector, and this article is largely commentary, opinion and conjecture.  Phrases such as "The Council of Ministers regards the parliament as a truculent adolescent" could be disregarded as having no references to back them up, however I'd be inclined to believe it - probably largely because the parliament has a number of nationalists and far-right wingers being deliberately disruptive.

And the one thing the article gets almost right is its conclusion, 

.The answer isn't an Exit, the answer is making it work

If there's a way of making it work then I would, I just don't see any viable ways we could make it work without risking that layer of control. That's my only reason for wanting to leave, I think it's strong and sure it can be countered but hopefully you can understand why I think that. 

[Teddington]

I sit on the fence on this one.

I really wish we could get some decent information instead of the scare stories and opinions of both sides.

At the moment I am edging towards "in" but that is only on account of the above.

[mikegday]

^ I haven't read above, so I appologise if my ignorance repeats other posts.

I'm half Aussie/half Brit after living in Aus for 9 years. I love Britiain hence moving back 2 years ago. BUT. The EU isn't working.

Australia's immigration policy isn't perfect, but it's certainly better than the UK's. I think all European countries should reject the free movement of people. Countries should be allowed to pick and choose the people they grant visas and citizenship to according to what that country needs at that time. A applicant from Brazil, should be assessed under the same criteria as someone from Spain. If you have guaranteed employment or proven experience/education in a skill currently required in the UK that should take priority over your current citizenship. I have heard the arguments about the UK needing EU citizens to do seasonal work. Well Australia needs seasonal agriculture workers so they encourage backpackers to take up that work for 3 months, in return you get granted an extension on your backpacking visa. Instead of giving Aussies 2 years straight away to live in the UK. Why couldn't that system be put into place here, those on working holiday visas in the UK either have to do seasonal work or charity work for a couple of months to get an extended visa. Leaving the EU will also allow European citizens are who settled here to become British citizens and commit ceremoniously to life in the UK.

In regards to the economy no tariff or very low tariff trade will continue regardless, it is absurd to think the common market would want to impose penalties on our large economy - it works both ways and will penalise them too! My office is also being closed as they have opened an office in Romania. It's probably not the best time for someone to go through this, but it has made me wonder if businesses are able to relocate easier in the EU - for this reason I challenge how much job security the EU brings. Clearly this is based on the recent events in my work in life. The world is a very small place now and products world wide sell for relatively similar prices - that will not change if we're in or out of the EU. Anything suggesting otherwise is a blatant scare tactic.

Overall I think Britain needs to believe in its self a bit more. We need a bit more pride in our country. One of my favourite days in Australia is Australia Day - there is nothing like that here! I'm hoping by leaving the EU, we look both inward more AND outward to the world more. In my eyes this EU bubble is very restrictive, there's a whole world out there! 

For the above reasons im voting out.

 

 

 

[RichardWaller]

Oh, Corbyn's on Last Leg, wonder how that'll go down.

[stuartbert two hats]

45 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Oh, Corbyn's on Last Leg, wonder how that'll go down.

It's rather enjoyable.

[RichardWaller]

11 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

It's rather enjoyable.

I'm enjoying it, aye. Love The Last Leg anyway, and I don't hate Corbyn, bonus.

[Digital Monkey (Womad)]

Are any Brexiters actually interested in the  concept of the European Union, the brainchild of people who had saw at first hand the horrors of the war? It seems to me that they are only interested in themselves.

Even if we are better off leaving the EU is that actually going to help other people in poorer nations in the EU? It seems to me that we are just running away from all of the issues that exist; jumping onto a ship and sailing into the distant horizon waving the EU behind us shouting "See ya later, we pissing off now as you lot are dragging us down, we're going let you lot get on with it yourselves."

Remember where we are born, is nothing more than a lucky throw of the dice at birth.

The UK can't do everything but we can do something to help and aid our close neighbours.

 

[clarkete]

4 hours ago, mikegday said:

In regards to the economy no tariff or very low tariff trade will continue regardless, it is absurd to think the common market would want to impose penalties on our large economy - it works both ways and will penalise them too! My office is also being closed as they have opened an office in Romania. It's probably not the best time for someone to go through this, but it has made me wonder if businesses are able to relocate easier in the EU - for this reason I challenge how much job security the EU brings. Clearly this is based on the recent events in my work in life. The world is a very small place now and products world wide sell for relatively similar prices - that will not change if we're in or out of the EU. Anything suggesting otherwise is a blatant scare tactic.

Overall I think Britain needs to believe in its self a bit more. We need a bit more pride in our country. One of my favourite days in Australia is Australia Day - there is nothing like that here! I'm hoping by leaving the EU, we look both inward more AND outward to the world more. In my eyes this EU bubble is very restrictive, there's a whole world out there! 

It's far more absurd that you should suggest that anything which is an unknown is a certainty.   This has never happened before to any country, hence the tremendous risks involved. 

Secondly it isn't necessarily job security we're getting, as you say jobs can move anywhere.   However if an international business wanted an hq, factory or whatever in future why would they choose the UK?   When they can use any of the European countries with established trade agreements and free movement - restricting their flexibility about where they could do stuff is just gonna stop the work coming here at all. 

If we leave,  then every day I'll be having "ashamed to be British day"   

Edited June 11, 2016 by clarkete

[RichardWaller]

On 9 June 2016 at 4:07 PM, eFestivals said:

 

Ah see, people can admit being wrong. Or are you going to carry on ignoring my questions?

[bamber]

The Left implodes. The Right Implodes

All that matters is Love

Love most likely coincides with Remain.

There you are........

[DeanoL]

4 hours ago, Digital Monkey (Womad) said:

Are any Brexiters actually interested in the  concept of the European Union, the brainchild of people who had saw at first hand the horrors of the war? It seems to me that they are only interested in themselves.

Even if we are better off leaving the EU is that actually going to help other people in poorer nations in the EU? It seems to me that we are just running away from all of the issues that exist; jumping onto a ship and sailing into the distant horizon waving the EU behind us shouting "See ya later, we pissing off now as you lot are dragging us down, we're going let you lot get on with it yourselves."

That's what the Brexit lot think they are doing. I'm not convinced the EU is dragging us down. I think it's pulling us up. All our political clout comes from being a leader in Europe. And that position comes from historical precedent.

If we leave, why will anyone give a shit about a little island nation with a middling economy that doesn't produce anything. We will become an irrelevance.

[bamber]

 

[bamber]

Eurotrash love love love

Pure and true...

 

[ICGenie]

7 hours ago, Digital Monkey (Womad) said:

Are any Brexiters actually interested in the  concept of the European Union, the brainchild of people who had saw at first hand the horrors of the war? It seems to me that they are only interested in themselves.

Even if we are better off leaving the EU is that actually going to help other people in poorer nations in the EU? It seems to me that we are just running away from all of the issues that exist; jumping onto a ship and sailing into the distant horizon waving the EU behind us shouting "See ya later, we pissing off now as you lot are dragging us down, we're going let you lot get on with it yourselves."

Remember where we are born, is nothing more than a lucky throw of the dice at birth.

The UK can't do everything but we can do something to help and aid our close neighbours.

 

 

[Thevorpalblade]

I'm happy to allow up to 70 million Turk's into Britain. There's plenty of space. Our hospitals can cope despite longer queues. And just think, it'll help relieve the burden on their health service.

Vote IN for uncontrolled immigration.

70 million. 

[Thevorpalblade]

Save David Cameron.

Vote IN.

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, Teddington said:

I sit on the fence on this one.

I really wish we could get some decent information instead of the scare stories and opinions of both sides.

At the moment I am edging towards "in" but that is only on account of the above.

Here's something to consider....

EU members have a particular deal with the EU, which gives access to the single market without tariffs in exchange for a budget contribution plus signing up to a set of common rules.  This deal is considered to be the best deal going by its members - because who decides to do the 2nd best thing if the best thing is an option?

On the basis of that, it's inconceivable that the UK would be offered a deal that's as good as the current one, because otherwise, what purpose does the EU serve to its members? If you can get the same trade terms without having to pay the same terms in exchange, why be a member at all?

I can't tell you what the deal we might get if 'out' would be, but I can guarantee to you it will be worse  and that 'worse' will make the UK poorer to some degree - otherwise the EU signs its own death warrant.

---

And here's something else....

You and your wife both run businesses. When one of those businesses needs something the other can supply, the first place you look to buy is the partner's business. That partner might not get the business of course because no one would pay (say) ten times as much as elsewhere out of loyalty, but it's in with first shout of getting it, and anyway the worth of any business trade is more than just the cheapest price. It's also about trust, and the shared relationship today and tomorrow.

You and your wife then get divorced. You no longer put each other as first place to go to to buy, and both of your businesses will suffer a reduction in turnover (and so also profit) as a natural consequence of one-less loyal customer.

I'm sure you can draw the parallels with that. Leaving the EU might not see existing UK/intra-EU-member business shrink (tho I think it still would to a degree), but it does mean that the UK will cease to be part of the list of first places to buy from for new businesses within the EU (and vice-versa), and so our opportunities for business will reduce over time.

We won't even be considered in a similar way to Norway or Switzerland even if we ended up with very similar deals to them and remained within the single market - because this country will have just spent months shouting about what's dreadful with the club we'd be reduced part of, and that's not going unnoticed by the other members of the club.

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, Thevorpalblade said:

I'm happy to allow up to 70 million Turk's into Britain. There's plenty of space. Our hospitals can cope despite longer queues. And just think, it'll help relieve the burden on their health service.

Vote IN for uncontrolled immigration.

70 million. 

I'm happy to give Rupert Murdoch full sovereign control of the UK and better tax avoidance. As he's said, he gets everything he can get from Westminster, but he gets nothing at all from the EU - apart from less opportunities to avoid taxes.

The difference between your sensational sarcastic rhetoric and mine? Mine is true.

 

Edited June 11, 2016 by eFestivals

[Thevorpalblade]

Apparently....The ECA signed off on the 2014 accounts as reliable, as it has for every set of figures since 2007. But it did find that payments were materially affected by errors.

So... how can 'reliable' figures contain 'dodgy' figures. Another EU fiddle.

EU countries manipulated their figures to join the Euro: what mess that is in. A mess that we're, indirectly, financially supporting

Europe can be trusted. Vote IN.

[st dan]

I would possibly consider leaning towards leave if the people in charge of running the country weren't such bumbling self-indulged buffoons. 

There is only so much 'power' we have without EU restrictions yes, but I've finally realised that that is a postive reason to stay in the EU and be bound to abide by certain laws and regulations. 

The alternative of letting Dave and 'the boys' (including future Boris) having free reign to run amok and negotiate all sorts of terms for their own personal gain and agendas is a terrifying prospect. 

Edited June 11, 2016 by st dan

[Thevorpalblade]

Look at Eurovision... vote IN to be 'outvoted' by the combined might of ....

Bulgaria, Croatia, Cypris, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Greece.

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, Thevorpalblade said:

Apparently....The ECA signed off on the 2014 accounts as reliable, as it has for every set of figures since 2007. But it did find that payments were materially affected by errors.

So... how can 'reliable' figures contain 'dodgy' figures. Another EU fiddle.

EU countries manipulated their figures to join the Euro: what mess that is in. A mess that we're, indirectly, financially supporting

Europe can be trusted. Vote IN.

would that be the Euro that nutters like you have been saying is in imminent danger of collapse (like tomorrow) since the day of its launch 16 years ago, and that it's a weak and failing currency?

The same Euro that's about 20% stronger today against the pound than it was on the day of its 'disastrous' launch?

That Euro, is that the one you mean?