Kneecap

[CaledonianGonzo]

5 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

Anytime “The Fields of Athenry” is sang there’s always a few who will sing “Sinn Fein” and “IRA” during the chorus but I don’t see that as them supporting the violence of the IRA. Neither do I feel somebody listening or singing any one of the many pro IRA songs by the Wolftones (the best example being “Celtic Symphony” where the chorus is literally “Oh ah up the ‘RA”) as being pro violence either.

 

[Nobby's Old Boots]

2 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

Anytime “The Fields of Athenry” is sang there’s always a few who will sing “Sinn Fein” and “IRA” during the chorus but I don’t see that as them supporting the violence of the IRA. Neither do I feel somebody listening or singing any one of the many pro IRA songs by the Wolftones (the best example being “Celtic Symphony” where the chorus is literally “Oh ah up the ‘RA”) as being pro violence either.

 

It’s stupid alright. As was chanting “Up Hamas”.

 

What’s really frustrating is that it complete takes over the narrative. All the other side wants is for those calling out Kneecap (and probably rightly so) to also call out what’s happening in Gaza.

 

It seems crazy to me that we can have such back and forth over what a band said while we’re seemingly closed lipped on the fact that more than 10 children are killed a day in Gaza.

This is a thread about Kneecap and has been said repeatedly, not supposed to be about the conflict itself so the last paragraph here is laughable honestly. It is possible to have separate conversations about these things. Pretending we're somehow ignoring the conflict by talking about this specific incident is just plain silly and you know that.

 

It might be very inconvenient for some people, but they said what they said and the apology is disingenuous. 

Everyone who is deciding this should all be moved on from because of their apology is wilfully ignoring the fact that they know full well they haven't apologised for openly and publicly showing support for a murderous, hateful terrorist organisation and I don't see how anyone with legitimate and genuine concerns for Palestine could see this as in any way helpful to the cause. This is all their doing unforunately, and no whataboutery will change that.

If you are going to position yourself as the voice of the oppressed and a politically active band then you should deal with the fact that there is going to be a backlash if you say deliberately provocative things. 

[TheDayman]

3 minutes ago, Nobby's Old Boots said:

This is a thread about Kneecap and has been said repeatedly, not supposed to be about the conflict itself so the last paragraph here is laughable honestly. It is possible to have separate conversations about these things. Pretending we're somehow ignoring the conflict by talking about this specific incident is just plain silly and you know that.

They go hand in hand and I'd argue your sentiment could be considered as gaslighting.

What I've said gives context to Kneecap's overall position and in particular, their anger that has led them to here.. It would be a far more productive discussion if you were able to consider this "why" rather than writing it off as a separate and almost irrelevant point. This is Kneecap's frustration (which they have consistently pointed out over the last few days) and something that is echoed by many here also.

 

[Physical_graffiti]

59 minutes ago, hjwright said:

Snoop Dogg raps about murdering police officers, kneecap tell people to kill their local tory MP. 

Do you understand the difference?

 

20 minutes ago, Nobby's Old Boots said:

How is it spot on?? 

They haven't apologised for showing support for Hamas, they appear to be lying by saying they never have and it's all taken out of context. Where is the evidence or explanation for this?

 

They said it, they should own up to it rather than blaming a conspiracy against them.

 

 

They're not lying, they're clarifying. So for clarity:

 

- Sometimes, art/performance makes statements that are provocative, controversial and violent that shouldn't literally be taken as calls to action, the point being to shock others with a exaggerated point largely in line with their political viewpoints.

- So when Snoop Dogg is celebrating the murder of policemen, he's making a provocative statement that he doesn't like the behaviour of the police in the community that he comes from. It might be violent and crude but he doesn't literally mean he wants us to murder police.

 

- When Kneecap say 'Brits out', they are making a provocative statement against British rule in Northern Ireland. It might be crude but they don't literally mean they want the displacement/ethnic cleansing of unionists in Northern Ireland.

 

- When Kneecap say on stage in the UK "Kill your local MP", they are making a provocative statement that they don't like most UK MPs as they support the Israel genocide. It might be violent and crude but they don't literally mean they want us to murder MPs.

- When Kneecap say "Up Hamas", they are making a provocative statement against Israel due to their genocide. It might be violent and crude but they don't literally mean they want us to murder civilians.

 

You might think it's offensive, misguided, clumsy or it might make you uncomfortable (and this overanalysis of punk/hip hop/political protest in music may bore you to tears 😛 ), which is fair enough, but their statement clarifies the position - that it's not to be taken literally and is drawing attention away from the ACTUAL MURDER of tens of thousands of children which these statements are designed to protest.

[Mand3]

15 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

They are a group who should be held to account by their government, this is my point - we expect more of Israel and Netanyahu is showing no moral leadership. We expect only bad from hamas and hezbollah tho and they rarely disappoint. 
I do remember a time when Israel had more moderate leadership though and their enemies attacked them from all sides so it’s a difficult one to square in that respect. 

Was this around the time they bulldozed over a protestor? 

[Nobby's Old Boots]

Glaslighting? Man alive. Give it a rest.

 

Wanted to see if anyone would offer any explanation for why they're claiming they're being misrepresented or why people are seemingly accepting an apology that contains an out and out lie but clearly no one is able to do that so that speaks volumes.

[Nobby's Old Boots]

3 minutes ago, Physical_graffiti said:

 

They're not lying, they're clarifying. So for clarity:

 

- Sometimes, art/performance makes statements that are provocative, controversial and violent that shouldn't literally be taken as calls to action, the point being to shock others with a exaggerated point largely in line with their political viewpoints.

- So when Snoop Dogg is celebrating the murder of policemen, he's making a provocative statement that he doesn't like the behaviour of the police in the community that he comes from. It might be violent and crude but he doesn't literally mean he wants us to murder police.

 

- When Kneecap say 'Brits out', they are making a provocative statement against British rule in Northern Ireland. It might be crude but they don't literally mean they want the displacement/ethnic cleansing of unionists in Northern Ireland.

 

- When Kneecap say on stage in the UK "Kill your local MP", they are making a provocative statement that they don't like most UK MPs as they support the Israel genocide. It might be violent and crude but they don't literally mean they want us to murder MPs.

- When Kneecap say "Up Hamas", they are making a provocative statement against Israel due to their genocide. It might be violent and crude but they don't literally mean they want us to murder civilians.

 

You might think it's offensive, misguided, clumsy or it might make you uncomfortable (and this overanalysis of punk/hip hop/political protest in music may bore you to tears 😛 ), which is fair enough, but their statement clarifies the position - that it's not to be taken literally and is drawing attention away from the ACTUAL MURDER of tens of thousands of children which these statements are designed to protest.

I think the Hamas thing stands out from the others personally, within the context of f**k Israel, Free Palestine, Up Hamas. They are explicitly political points about sensitive events happening right now and that does include showing support for a terrorist organisation. It's not really a case of making me personally feel uncomfortable, I just don't believe it can be waved away so easily given the context, and I think the apology is deliberately misleading and a bit self pitying considering there is indisputable proof they did say it.

 

But anyway I've had my part in the discussion and it's been enlightening.

[Colorblindjames]

17 minutes ago, Nobby's Old Boots said:

This is a thread about Kneecap and has been said repeatedly, not supposed to be about the conflict itself so the last paragraph here is laughable honestly. It is possible to have separate conversations about these things. Pretending we're somehow ignoring the conflict by talking about this specific incident is just plain silly and you know that.

 

It might be very inconvenient for some people, but they said what they said and the apology is disingenuous. 

Everyone who is deciding this should all be moved on from because of their apology is wilfully ignoring the fact that they know full well they haven't apologised for openly and publicly showing support for a murderous, hateful terrorist organisation and I don't see how anyone with legitimate and genuine concerns for Palestine could see this as in any way helpful to the cause. This is all their doing unforunately, and no whataboutery will change that.

If you are going to position yourself as the voice of the oppressed and a politically active band then you should deal with the fact that there is going to be a backlash if you say deliberately provocative things. 

Good try but you can’t separate the discussion about kneecap from the conflict. It is their support for the Palestinian cause that has created this fake moral panic.

 

Just because you have a dim view of Hamas doesn’t mean others share your view. In other countries they aren’t a proscribed organisation and are viewed as a legitimate response to the persecution of the Palestinians. Why are they proscribed in the UK while the IDF aren’t? Many in Ireland for example view the British army as a terrible organisation too.
 

Differences of opinion. 

[fraybentos1]

20 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

So you don’t believe he read the book and this is simply a photo op?

Quite possibly. Just noticed the bottle of bucky in his hand too 😅

 

To be honest, I don't really care I'm just saying it's a bam up. I don't think we can prove one way or another whether he sat and read the book and absorbed the info when doing his bedtime reading. 

 

It also doesn't scream 'we do not support Hezbollah/ Hamas in anyway' as they allude to in their statement. 

 

I also find it hilarious how yesterday they were revolutionaries who would laugh in the face of cancel culture and today they're coming out with a statement cause they're sh*t scared of losing bookings and money.

[fraybentos1]

8 minutes ago, Physical_graffiti said:

- When Kneecap say "Up Hamas", they are making a provocative statement against Israel due to their genocide. It might be violent and crude but they don't literally mean they want us to murder civilians.

You do realise words actually mean things?

 

9 minutes ago, Physical_graffiti said:

but their statement clarifies the position

their statement clarifies that they're actually sh*t scared of being cancelled which is rather amusing. They're worried about losing money.

[fraybentos1]

A few in here still clinging to the idea that Glasto is still a place of counter culture, when in fact it's a middle-class, guardian reader haven.

 

 

[hjwright]

53 minutes ago, itschris said:

I think you are wrong to believe it is at all proportional, it is no longer defence, its now mass murder and attempted racial extermination.

 

I hate to break it to you, but war isn't proportional. It's not something that exists to be fair and fought with equal blows. 

[Nobby's Old Boots]

2 minutes ago, Colorblindjames said:

Good try but you can’t separate the discussion about kneecap from the conflict. It is their support for the Palestinian cause that has created this fake moral panic.

 

Just because you have a dim view of Hamas doesn’t mean others share your view. In other countries they aren’t a proscribed organisation and are viewed as a legitimate response to the persecution of the Palestinians. Why are they proscribed in the UK while the IDF aren’t? Many in Ireland for example view the British army as a terrible organisation too.
 

Differences of opinion. 

Good try yourself - I wasn't attempting to separate them, I was explaining that people posting on a thread about kneecap shouldn't be moaned at for talking about Kneecap and not exclusively the conflict. There is a thread for that- as has been explained multiple times. No one is trying to shut down a conversation.

 

A "dim" view of a terrorist group who murdered innocent men women and children? f**king hell. I'm definitely done with this thread.

 

And just for clarity because I know full well you'll jump on it if I don't say it, I despise the Israeli government and the IDF and don't see their response as in any way justified.

 

But yeah, I'm not interacting with this thread anymore.

[Johndenis]

2 hours ago, Mand3 said:

I watched the Louis Theroux doc on the BBC last night and I wonder why the outrage is directed at Kneecap. 

 Have Googled and am intrigued, does he pass no comment but let "ultra Zionists" (wonder if that's his term, or their own) speak freely?  Re Kneecap, think the statement should have just said sorry for mentions of killing MPs, support for Hamas, and maybe noted they've come under pressure since making other statements which they continue to stand b.

[Physical_graffiti]

Just now, fraybentos1 said:

You do realise words actually mean things?

 

I think you should read my entire post again as I don't think you understand it. But the general gist of it was they don't always literally mean the literal thing they are literally saying, especially when said in the 'art' world (music, performance etc). Otherwise there'd be no such thing as hyperbole, allegory etc. 

 

It's a VERY violent VERY controversial and in many people's opinions VERY inadvisable statement in the context of protesting current events at a music concert....but don't take it literally. As someone else said, singing along to Wolfe Tones songs does not make one a supporter of the Birmingham pub bombings

[efcfanwirral]

The main thing that makes me uncomfortable with how Kneecap have approached it all is the context around festivals.

 

Even if it's meant to be provocative/they don't mean it/it's art/out of context/calling attention to the situation/they were so angry etc, as a band, even going near "up Hamas, up Hezbollah" at a music event considering what happened at an equivalent event in Israel, is an incredible lapse in judgement. 

[CaledonianGonzo]

3 minutes ago, hjwright said:

 

I hate to break it to you, but war isn't proportional. It's not something that exists to be fair and fought with equal blows. 

 

You need two armies to have war.

[Colorblindjames]

6 minutes ago, hjwright said:

 

I hate to break it to you, but war isn't proportional. It's not something that exists to be fair and fought with equal blows. 

Sounds like you support Hamas too then. 

[fraybentos1]

3 minutes ago, Physical_graffiti said:

I think you should read my entire post again as I don't think you understand it. But the general gist of it was they don't always literally mean the literal thing they are literally saying, especially when said in the 'art' world (music, performance etc). Otherwise there'd be no such thing as hyperbole, allegory etc. 

 

It's a VERY violent VERY controversial and in many people's opinions VERY inadvisable statement in the context of protesting current events at a music concert....but don't take it literally. As someone else said, singing along to Wolfe Tones songs does not make one a supporter of the Birmingham pub bombings

I do get what you're saying cheers, you're listing examples and saying none of them are to be taken seriously and it's not literal etc.

 

I'm just saying it seems like a cop out. Yes, I realise they don't actually want me to go kill my local MP, I just find it a deplorable comment given the recent context regarding this exact thing. 

[Blisterpack]

5 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

 

You need two armies to have war.

What would you have considered a proportionate response to the the Nova festival /October 7 attack? 

[TheDayman]

10 minutes ago, Nobby's Old Boots said:

Glaslighting? Man alive. Give it a rest.

 

Wanted to see if anyone would offer any explanation for why they're claiming they're being misrepresented or why people are seemingly accepting an apology that contains an out and out lie but clearly no one is able to do that so that speaks volumes.

It's gaslighting - you're trying to separate Kneecaps' comments on stage from the reasons that drove them to say them.

It also must be noted that you've avoided commenting on the why, which again is what causes frustration.

Plenty on the pro-Palestine, in fact, probably better described now as anti-Gaza genocide, have called out Kneecap for what they've said. However, it seemingly never goes the other way around. A simple "what Kneecap did was wrong (to whatever degree you want to weight it) but I also recognise the devastation inflicted in Gaza by the IDF that has triggered their comments" seems too much to ask. I find absolutely crazy given the situation.
 

[Nathan Explosion]

They were given a significant platform to say whatever they wanted and they've used it pretty well with their apology statement I'd say. Yeah they could've been a little more explicit about why they said those things in a couple of one off instances, but it's pretty easy to infer they got carried away and went too far. Which they've now apologized for.

 

The key thing for me is that they were just that - one off instances. The media, and even some of the people in this thread, are talking as though every Kneecap show features extended pro Hamas/kill your MP chants, when that just absolutely isn't the case. In fact, these moments would've been completely forgotten had it not been for the media dredging them up and then reporting on them in quite a sensationalist manner.

 

I'm not claiming conspiracy, it's a much more mundane evil than that. Controversy drives clicks/engagement, and that's ultimately all that matters to the media. The result is we now have people - wrongly - believing there's a mainstream & critically acclaimed band who unequivocally support Hamas & harming MPs. That wasn't the message Kneecap themselves wanted out there, otherwise it wouldn't have been isolated to a couple of their many many shows. It's the media's fault that's the message that is now out there, and we should be careful about perpetuating it ourselves.

 

Anyway, I hope they do play Glastonbury. I think their music is catchy, funny (if a little puerile at times), and clearly driven by genuine passion, which looks like it translates to a great live show. If I had a ticket I'd definitely be watching them.

[steviewevie]

9 minutes ago, Johndenis said:

 Have Googled and am intrigued, does he pass no comment but let "ultra Zionists" (wonder if that's his term, or their own) speak freely? 

Seen it and it's about the settlers in West Bank mostly, and he does pass comment....but yes he hears the settlers point of view, and also from some West Bank Palestinians.

[hjwright]

4 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

 

You need two armies to have war.

If they aren't a military then they don't get the same level of protection under Geneva convention. 

[hjwright]

1 minute ago, Nathan Explosion said:

They were given a significant platform to say whatever they wanted and they've used it pretty well with their apology statement I'd say. Yeah they could've been a little more explicit about why they said those things in a couple of one off instances, but it's pretty easy to infer they got carried away and went too far. Which they've now apologized for.

 

The key thing for me is that they were just that - one off instances. The media, and even some of the people in this thread, are talking as though every Kneecap show features extended pro Hamas/kill your MP chants, when that just absolutely isn't the case. In fact, these moments would've been completely forgotten had it not been for the media dredging them up and then reporting on them in quite a sensationalist manner.

 

I'm not claiming conspiracy, it's a much more mundane evil than that. Controversy drives clicks/engagement, and that's ultimately all that matters to the media. The result is we now have people - wrongly - believing there's a mainstream & critically acclaimed band who unequivocally support Hamas & harming MPs. That wasn't the message Kneecap themselves wanted out there, otherwise it wouldn't have been isolated to a couple of their many many shows. It's the media's fault that's the message that is now out there, and we should be careful about perpetuating it ourselves.

 

Anyway, I hope they do play Glastonbury. I think their music is catchy, funny (if a little puerile at times), and clearly driven by genuine passion, which looks like it translates to a great live show. If I had a ticket I'd definitely be watching them.

See when I get carried away I might call a bloke in the pub a c**t. 

 

I'm not sure supporting a terrorist organisation is really "getting carried away"