news & politics:discussion

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

No, they just need to stop the division. I think there is definitely a future for labour...but it's a long way back at moment. With the voting system we have they have to either work together...or work with other parties...it's the only way. If we had PR then labour could finally split and then they could fight each other in coalition government.

Johnson is making a lot of promises...but he does that...promises everything to everyone...no checks in the Irish sea etc...

pr would be a disaster for labour each left winger cuould vote for their preferred faction and would- the SWP would finally get some voters from the corbyn faction

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

Read what I said again. Friends of mine from Manchester and Liverpool have it drummed into them that a Tory is a rich upper class toff. They struggle to comprehend that someone from the complete opposite side of the class scale would be a proud Tory voter.

oh, ok.
I mean, they're right of course...but a tory is also a working class plumber from Bournmouth, and now a working class plumber from Wigan...aspirational.

Starmer really should appeal to the aspirational working class who don't want to be looked down at, where they don't want pity, they want to be able to succeed etc etc. His dad was a toolmaker, his mum was a nurse, he did well at school and ended up beecoming a top lawyer.  Where as Bojo is just an eton toff.

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

pr would be a disaster for labour each left winger cuould vote for their preferred faction and would- the SWP would finally get some voters from the corbyn faction

yeah, would be the end of labour...well not the end, but it would be smaller....but tories are winning power with a minority of the vote...with pr there could be left/centre coalitions...it would be beautiful, everything would be awesome.

Edited May 9, 2021 by steviewevie

[steviewevie]

 

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

oh, ok.
I mean, they're right of course...but a tory is also a working class plumber from Bournmouth, and now a working class plumber from Wigan...aspirational.

Starmer really should appeal to the aspirational working class who don't want to be looked down at, where they don't want pity, they want to be able to succeed etc etc. His dad was a toolmaker, his mum was a nurse, he did well at school and ended up beecoming a top lawyer.  Where as Bojo is just an eton toff.

you dont aapeal to the aspirational by banging on abouthow shit the countyb is

[steviewevie]

Like Helen Lewis said yesterday, labour need to get off twitter.

[Matt42]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

oh, ok.
I mean, they're right of course...but a tory is also a working class plumber from Bournmouth, and now a working class plumber from Wigan...aspirational.

Starmer really should appeal to the aspirational working class who don't want to be looked down at, where they don't want pity, they want to be able to succeed etc etc. His dad was a toolmaker, his mum was a nurse, he did well at school and ended up beecoming a top lawyer.  Where as Bojo is just an eton toff.

It’s complicated to explain but I think because Boris doesn’t pretend at all to be anything but a toff, he is seen as more credible than a successful lawyer who tries to appeal to working classes saying he is just like them?

The Labour Party, in itself, is no longer run by labourers. So by its nature it appears fraudulent.

I don’t think they cared about it this much when Blair was in power? But it feels like a real problem now that Labour is run by the middle class.

[Ozanne]

I think this election shows that Labour didn’t really stand for anything but there were gains, every single one of those gains were in areas that had felt left out over recent years. Labour really improved where they either were free to criticise Brexit or where the damage caused by Brexit was evident.

In other words where Labour were able to distinguish themselves from the Conservatives, Labour did quite well.

Therefore I think it shows that if you can distinguish yourselves from the Conservatives (as everyone knows the Conservatives are crap) then people will see that and will vote for you. 

[Mr.Tease]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

He's not trying to bring back old issues that needed to be dealt with in most people's eyes.

The way that unions used to disrupt normalise wasn't popular with large parts of the population.and the voting public want politicians who act in their interests and not in the interests of people who would kill them given half a chance corbyns support for the IRA.

"But Corbyn!", it's your stock response to every criticism of the Labour right. You're like a broken record- just look back at your posts on this thread and how often you say it- no one cares about Corbyn

[Matt42]

1 minute ago, Mr.Tease said:

"But Corbyn!", it's your stock response to every criticism of the Labour right. You're like a broken record- just look back at your posts on this thread and how often you say it- no one cares about Corbyn

But Corbyn is important. It’s only been a year and a bit since he was leader.

Labour need to prove as a party that they’ve moved on from Corbyn. Some might argue that they haven’t proven that yet at all.

and the reason why it’s an issue is whenever this is brought up you get a corbyn fan come from nowhere saying that corbyn was a success.

The Labour Party need to admit that the corbyn project was a massive failure that has seriously damaged their reputation and credibility. They are still trying to saddle the Corbyn lobby internally in the party. 

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

Ias everyone knows the Conservatives are crap)

its lines like this which turns off voters there was an article in the guardian the other day about it.

also that the tories are killing the nhs they havent killed it ihn the 40 years that line has been usedso its proved itself untrue

[Ozanne]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

its lines like this which turns off voters there was an article in the guardian the other day about it.

also that the tories are killing the nhs they havent killed it ihn the 40 years that line has been usedso its proved itself untrue

I disagree, there’s a difference between saying the Conservatives are crap and criticising people for voting for them. Labour just need to be effective at putting that message across.

Besides the Conservatives are crap and the evidence shows in this election where you can distinguish yourselves from people are willing to vote for you. 

[steviewevie]

13 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

It’s complicated to explain but I think because Boris doesn’t pretend at all to be anything but a toff, he is seen as more credible than a successful lawyer who tries to appeal to working classes saying he is just like them?

The Labour Party, in itself, is no longer run by labourers. So by its nature it appears fraudulent.

I don’t think they cared about it this much when Blair was in power? But it feels like a real problem now that Labour is run by the middle class.

maybe...but...also Johnson is funny, right? He's likeable, the horrible twat. Whereas Starmer is boring.
 

Labour was set up to represent industrial working class people in a totally different age...when working class people had only just been allowed the vote. We're in a very different world now. There's a lot less industry, and most working class now dont' belong to a union. But, also Labour from the start had a middle class intellectual side to it.

[steviewevie]

10 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

its lines like this which turns off voters there was an article in the guardian the other day about it.

also that the tories are killing the nhs they havent killed it ihn the 40 years that line has been usedso its proved itself untrue

underfunded though...and is anyone ever going to actually do something about social care in this country?

[Zacko]

3 hours ago, Matt42 said:

Lol I come back on here and people are suggesting DAVID LAMMY?

Whilst he’s a nice guy he is seen as one of the top ‘wokies’ of the Labour Party. Very London centric and you know his whole political view has been formed independent of the regions.

bloody hell there are also cringe compilations online with stuff he’s said.

Personally I think Andy Burnham would make a good figure head for Labour, but I don’t see it happening. James O Brien said the other day what they need is a charismatic figurehead and a strong team behind them. He suggested someone like Dec from and and dec.

They need someone who will be successful on the door step. David Lammy would tank anywhere outside of major cities. If you’re argument is “well if you read his book you may like him” it’s already too much for the gb public to like him. They need three words akin to “get Brexit done”

Not sure why you're acting like we've just suggested Jimmy Saville for leader 😆

And I'd say he's the complete opposite of being London centric, at least in terms of having a strategy or a plan for an election. There's entire chapters on how to focus more on the regions. Some great stuff in there. I promise I'm not getting commision for this haha, just a book I really enjoyed reading  

But yeah, Burnham would be my first pick as well. How long is a Mayors term? 

The key thing they both have is passion, that's really what Keir is missing. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Zacko

[SwedgeAntilles]

A good start would be not calling him "Boris". He's not your mate, he doesn't deserve that level of interpersonal attention. 

[steviewevie]

25 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

But Corbyn is important. It’s only been a year and a bit since he was leader.

Labour need to prove as a party that they’ve moved on from Corbyn. Some might argue that they haven’t proven that yet at all.

and the reason why it’s an issue is whenever this is brought up you get a corbyn fan come from nowhere saying that corbyn was a success.

The Labour Party need to admit that the corbyn project was a massive failure that has seriously damaged their reputation and credibility. They are still trying to saddle the Corbyn lobby internally in the party. 

A lot of labour's 2017 manifesto was popular, and so was 2019...but Corbyn was unpopular with a lot of people and was a crap leader really. But, not sure if he should be written off. There are a lot of people out there who voted labour because of Corbyn, and now are not. Starmer has to somehow distance himself from Corbyn manifestos to appeal to certain voters, but not too much as to lose others.

Edited May 9, 2021 by steviewevie

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

A good start would be not calling him "Boris". He's not your mate, he doesn't deserve that level of interpersonal attention. 

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson

[Matt42]

I really can’t hear anymore that Corbyn’s manifesto was popular when it was one of Labour’s worst defeats.

[eFestivals]

19 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I disagree, there’s a difference between saying the Conservatives are crap and criticising people for voting for them. 

Not really cos what does it say about people who vote for crap

[thewayiam]

Just now, eFestivals said:

Not really cos what does it say about people who vote for crap

That people have their own opinion.

Yours views are so narrow minded and based on nothing but you think can be correct it's unreal!

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Not really cos what does it say about people who vote for crap

that they need educating until they vote correctly.

[steviewevie]

9 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

I really can’t hear anymore that Corbyn’s manifesto was popular when it was one of Labour’s worst defeats.

not sure many people actually know what are in manifestos. In 2019 it was all Get Brexit Done. It 2017 it was all May's dementia tax.

[mattiloy]

27 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Blarisim and Thatcherism where not all that different from aspirational point of view.  And Boris has hooked into it as well with Brexit and Leveling up agenda.

People don't want hand outs... the want opportunities for themselves and their children...

Labour currently offering nothing in this regards.  Corybn certainly didn't.. 

'People don't want X, they want Y'. Been round talking to a lot of people have you?

Again, yougov polling on single issues shows large majorities for nationalisation of rail, ending nhs privatisation, proper investment in schools, more council housing. So the data doesn't really support your conjecture.

I heard Luke Akehurst on 5live this morning (introduced laughably as the voice for labour 'moderates') talking authoritatively on what 'people' want too. A little right wing sneak who lives in Oxford and was roundly rejected as a labour councillor just yesterday. What the fuck does he know? Starmer, Wes Streeting, Rachel Reeves, London neoliberal, remainers going around necking pints and telling us what 'people' want after getting absolutely obliterated in the elections.

'People' didn't appear to want what they were offering this time, why is the solution 'do it more'?

Also why is it that what they say 'people' want also appears to be what most benefits the press barons and the city of london?

[Simsy]

7 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Also why is it that what they say 'people' want also appears to be what most benefits the press barons and the city of london?

Tbf, if they don't appeal to the press barons they don't stand much chance. The popular shit-rags are basically Tory propaganda.