news & politics:discussion

[Mattymooz]

5 hours ago, steviewevie said:

maybe they're sick of being governed by a political party they never vote for, and to leave the EU they never voted for....and maybe they just want to fully govern themsleves...like they used to...

Just jumping on this cause I find the debate interesting - why are you so keen to join back in with the EU but leave the UK? What about the EU is more attractive than the union you have closer ties with, more in common with, more of an economic tie with etc.

Always seems backwards thinking imo. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be back in the EU (bigger blocks are usually better imo) but it seems weird to be like 'oh we don't have a voice in the UK so let's go and join this other union where we have even less of a direct voice'...

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, mattiloy said:

 

Me I’m more of a democracy man myself. At the point at which the people of Scotland decide that they want to go it alone, then thats good enough for me.

Me too but not if they're conned into it by brexit style lies (which was the 2014 indy campaign)

[eFestivals]

6 hours ago, Haan said:

Land Value Tax and Media reform was on the agenda, shame they didn't manage to get into the top 8 but good policies all round imo

Will those items get dumped for a debate on Palestine instead?

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, steviewevie said:

nd

Andt I thought Spaffer had no problems with attacks on journalists having tried to help one in the past

[Ryan1984]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Andt I thought Spaffer had no problems with attacks on journalists having tried to help one in the past

He’s been quiet on the assaults on journalists in Bristol, hasn’t he?

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Ryan1984 said:

He’s been quiet on the assaults on journalists in Bristol, hasn’t he?

Someoneshouldsskhim were about those and darius gguppy

[steviewevie]

9 hours ago, Mattymooz said:

Just jumping on this cause I find the debate interesting - why are you so keen to join back in with the EU but leave the UK? What about the EU is more attractive than the union you have closer ties with, more in common with, more of an economic tie with etc.

Always seems backwards thinking imo. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be back in the EU (bigger blocks are usually better imo) but it seems weird to be like 'oh we don't have a voice in the UK so let's go and join this other union where we have even less of a direct voice'...

I'm English living in England, so I'm staying out of EU and in the UK no matter what.  Probably just a mixture of bitterness, dislike of english exceptionalism, dislike of this government, and wanting to break things...but yeah, I did want to stay in EU mostly because I like the idea of fewer borders so wanting a new one between England and Scotland probably doesn't make sense, but there you go....but at same time if the majority of Scots want it...and has to be a sizable majority I think...then what can you do...let them go...

If we had a labour government, or the very real prospect of one, I would likely be thinking very differently.

Edited April 8, 2021 by steviewevie

[mcshed]

23 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I'm English living in England, so I'm staying out of EU and in the UK no matter what.  Probably just a mixture of bitterness, dislike of english exceptionalism, dislike of this government, and wanting to break things...but yeah, I did want to stay in EU mostly because I like the idea of fewer borders so wanting a new one between England and Scotland probably doesn't make sense, but there you go....but at same time if the majority of Scots want it...and has to be a sizable majority I think...then what can you do...let them go...

If we had a labour government, or the very real prospect of one, I would likely be thinking very differently.

Those on the English left who seem to support Scottish Independence as they see it as some glorious fuck you to the Tories really wind me up. 

[mattiloy]

9 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I'm English living in England, so I'm staying out of EU and in the UK no matter what.  Probably just a mixture of bitterness, dislike of english exceptionalism, dislike of this government, and wanting to break things...but yeah, I did want to stay in EU mostly because I like the idea of fewer borders so wanting a new one between England and Scotland probably doesn't make sense, but there you go....but at same time if the majority of Scots want it...and has to be a sizable majority I think...then what can you do...let them go...

If we had a labour government, or the very real prospect of one, I would likely be thinking very differently.

The EU is not perfect. Its necessarily a dilution of democracy. The only reason liberals like it is because on average it makes decisions that are more progressive than those that would be voted for by the UK population. And possibly some kind of metropolitan romanticism about french cinema or some shite. If the EU were dominated by a right wing, illiberal agenda would liberals be so keen?

Of course, it is better for trade to be part of the union but those trade terms can be achieved without membership à la Norway.

The EU did overreach in the 2000s trying to centralise more and more and move closer to political union as part of a wider globalisation trend.
 

For me, it was a bad idea. Decentralisation and mass participation is in my opinion the future of democracy. Culture, place and people matters. I don’t want the world to turn into a metropolitan melange where there is no palpable difference between Beijing and London. Variety is the spice of life!

[Haan]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Will those items get dumped for a debate on Palestine instead?

No, those items simply didn't get enough votes compared to the 8 that did in the tweet...

[maelzoid]

For me, a big part of the EU appeal was the removing of walls (metaphorical and physical) following WW2. In some ways it's amazing to think how quickly we went from all out war to a politically unified (at least in part) people. For all its failings, the EU makes it very unlikely that war will return to Europe like it did in the 40s. Leaving the EU felt like a massive step back from that progress.

I think the EU is in desperate need of some reform, but now the UK is out, we won't be able to shape that, which I think is a big mistake. So many leavers seem convinced that things will get worse for those in the EU, and better for the UK now it is independent, but I think it will be the other way around, and in a couple of generations, we may be looking on enviously at our more prosperous neighbours.

 

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, mcshed said:

Those on the English left who seem to support Scottish Independence as they see it as some glorious fuck you to the Tories really wind me up. 

yeah...that's me.

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

The EU is not perfect. Its necessarily a dilution of democracy. The only reason liberals like it is because on average it makes decisions that are more progressive than those that would be voted for by the UK population. And possibly some kind of metropolitan romanticism about french cinema or some shite. If the EU were dominated by a right wing, illiberal agenda would liberals be so keen?

Of course, it is better for trade to be part of the union but those trade terms can be achieved without membership à la Norway.

The EU did overreach in the 2000s trying to centralise more and more and move closer to political union as part of a wider globalisation trend.
 

For me, it was a bad idea. Decentralisation and mass participation is in my opinion the future of democracy. Culture, place and people matters. I don’t want the world to turn into a metropolitan melange where there is no palpable difference between Beijing and London. Variety is the spice of life!

yeah, for me it's mostly the french cinema.

[steviewevie]

 

[st dan]

 

Jim’ll Paint It has nailed it with his ‘Great Britain’ illustration here. 

[Ozanne]

6 hours ago, mcshed said:

Those on the English left who seem to support Scottish Independence as they see it as some glorious fuck you to the Tories really wind me up. 

I want the Union to stay together. I can’t argue for the EU then argue for the U.K. to be split up. Countries are stronger together. 

[eFestivals]

20 hours ago, eFestivals said:

But with less bullshit than comes from the average snipper.

When the facts are thought of as oppressive the problem is the we thoughts

[Ozanne]

Why aren’t the media reporting about NI being on fire?

[ace56blaa]

33 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I want the Union to stay together. I can’t argue for the EU then argue for the U.K. to be split up. Countries are stronger together. 

I think there is a huge difference between the two circumstances. Yes ideally you seek to stay a part of a bigger union. But the so called problems with the EU, the reason many Britons wanted to leave, have since mostly been debunked, shown to be exaggerated or just complete lies. 

On the other hand I can see why Scotland, would wanna leave the EU, devolution has been frequently criticized by the Tory government, Boris even saying it has been a failure. They would seek to rejoin the EU, which could be a better choice than being a part of the UK, even if it does take ages. They'll hold the cards on stuff like Trident, England no longer automatically being able to store weapons. Then, the U.K government barely care about the north of England, let alone Scotland. 

Ideally the best way to proceed would be to vote out the Tories. But with them still polling ahead of Labour in their most disastrous year yet and Keir Starmer being an absolute dud, the possibility of kicking out the tories especially if the vaccination programme continues without many hitches are slim. 

I don't want the U.K to split up, but I see why many want to and honestly it just lies at the feet of the Tories who are currently alienating the North, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Northern Island, Women, Minorities and Anyone with a decent heart, yet they still have support because lets face it, a lot of voters in this country are gormless.

[ace56blaa]

4 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Why aren’t the media reporting about NI being on fire?

Because the BBC is impartial finally 😉

[eFestivals]

22 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Means different things...but you know that....proud Scottish people wanting independence...and English people proud of (perceived) dominance.

Scottish people waving flags are like anyall FL as botherers.they don't become something different because they're Scottish( if they did that would be thevstandard eceptionalism that normally goes along with nationalism.

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, steviewevie said:

I'm English living in England, so I'm staying out of EU and in the UK no matter what.  Probably just a mixture of bitterness, dislike of english exceptionalism, dislike of this government, and wanting to break things...but yeah, I did want to stay in EU mostly because I like the idea of fewer borders so wanting a new one bet..but at same time if the majority of Scots want it

As long as they're sold the reality of it they weren't in 2014 which was brexit style bullshit.

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, mcshed said:

Those on the English left who seem to support Scottish Independence as they see it as some glorious fuck you to the Tories really wind me up. 

Sco.tishnationalism is part of why labour are struggling to make progress. People oofvthere UK want a govt to hat wants he he's to for the uk.not a govt with people who want to end the UK.

[steviewevie]

29 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Sco.tishnationalism is part of why labour are struggling to make progress. People oofvthere UK want a govt to hat wants he he's to for the uk.not a govt with people who want to end the UK.

Not 100% sure what you said there....but in the past Scotland always voted labour but mostly got a tory govt....and maybe they're just a bit sick of it.

[mattiloy]

2 hours ago, Ozanne said:

I want the Union to stay together. I can’t argue for the EU then argue for the U.K. to be split up. Countries are stronger together. 

Like the soviet union? Or the British Empire. Strong as a whole, but to the detriment of all the constituent parts but the centre of power.

Centralisation is always bad, always antidemocratic, the more concentrated the power, the more easily tyranny takes hold.

Edited April 8, 2021 by mattiloy