news & politics:discussion

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

vaccines

I agree, I think most of the gains made by the Tories are due to the vaccine bounce. Labour caught up by the New Year then the vaccination program took over so in theory polls should then tighten in the Autumn I would think. It’ll be tough for Labour but this is the long game and they shouldn’t make any knee jerk decisions. 

[mattiloy]

45 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

.Starmer hasn't made hardly any announcements on policies...he may actually end up somewhere between Corbyn and Milliband economically...but with loads of socially conservative stuff thrown in there...to try and win over voters like those in Hartlepool, but so far he's failing if that poll is right.

True enough but it seems like he’s been preparing the ground for classic blue labour policies: social conservatism with more or less a carbon copy of Sunak’s plans on the economy (marginally more spending but still a focus on ’responsible’ fiscal conservatism especially at the backend of the pandemic recovery). Indeed if the rumours are true that he’s going to drop soft left Dodds and promote Rachel ’austerity’ Reeves to shadow chancellor then it is still less hopeful.

But we’ll see. Hopefully there is a change in tack after this Hartlepool stuff but so far there has been nothing to suggest that he will come out all guns blazing with some radical progressive spending plan.

Still think the main issue with Corbynism was the messenger rather than the message. They wanted the policies but between the man and the media’s portrayal of him, he couldn’t sell it. He might as well have been talking about magic beans. But Starmer has a suit and a haircut and a knighthood. Which i deride, but it should make him a better salesman so long as he is selling something people want. New labour isn’t it.

[eFestivals]

2 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

do the usual flag waving nonsense that plays well

its not about that its about wanting the best for the country

[mcshed]

So the big conclusion from that Hartlepool poll was that the Brexit party vote had all trotted along to the Tories and they only spoke to just 13 people who said they voted Brexit party last time so it's safe to say they've jumped to a pretty big conclusion based off not much.

[fraybentos1]

1 hour ago, mcshed said:

So the big conclusion from that Hartlepool poll was that the Brexit party vote had all trotted along to the Tories and they only spoke to just 13 people who said they voted Brexit party last time so it's safe to say they've jumped to a pretty big conclusion based off not much.

Yep, not even 1000 participants in it, was only 500 too so the margin of error must be pretty high too. 

 

[steviewevie]

Grown up politics.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/opinion/columnists/chris-deerin/3031942/giving-hysteria-the-elbow-and-offering-a-return-to-simple-grown-up-politics/amp/

[Homer]

Interested to note that a former colleague of mine and his mates who are all Johnson/tory voters are now turning on him/them over lockdown. Slightly bizarre as I (almost) feel like defending him/them (the reverse of how it used to go when I could be bothered to debate stuff with them).

The only conclusion I can take from this is that a lot of right wing people just aren't very happy and will complain no matter what (see: Brexit)!

[steviewevie]

10 minutes ago, Homer said:

Interested to note that a former colleague of mine and his mates who are all Johnson/tory voters are now turning on him/them over lockdown. Slightly bizarre as I (almost) feel like defending him/them (the reverse of how it used to go when I could be bothered to debate stuff with them).

The only conclusion I can take from this is that a lot of right wing people just aren't very happy and will complain no matter what (see: Brexit)!

it's kind of weird how people seem to be hard wired differently...left or right, leaver or remainer, pro-lockdown or anti-lockdown...and it seems to be people on left are mostly remainers and pro-lockdown, and those on right are mostly leavers and anti-lockdown (obviously there are are exceptions!).

What's that all about Homer?

[Homer]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

it's kind of weird how people seem to be hard wired differently...left or right, leaver or remainer, pro-lockdown or anti-lockdown...and it seems to be people on left are mostly remainers and pro-lockdown, and those on right are mostly leavers and anti-lockdown (obviously there are are exceptions!).

What's that all about Homer?

Well, Steviewevie, a lot of right wing thinking is driven by fear apparently. Is that relevant here?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201612/fear-and-anxiety-drive-conservatives-political-attitudes

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, Homer said:

Well, Steviewevie, a lot of right wing thinking is driven by fear apparently. Is that relevant here?

could well be.

They're scared.

[Homer]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

could well be.

They're scared.

If you're arguing with a right winger, do feel free to drop in 'don't worry, I know you're only scared', backed up with that article. Always goes down well. They love that.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Homer said:

Interested to note that a former colleague of mine and his mates who are all Johnson/tory voters are now turning on him/them over lockdown. Slightly bizarre as I (almost) feel like defending him/them (the reverse of how it used to go when I could be bothered to debate stuff with them).

The only conclusion I can take from this is that a lot of right wing people just aren't very happy and will complain no matter what (see: Brexit)!

Who would they vote for?

[Homer]

14 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Who would they vote for?

Dunno, they all voted boris. I wold ask but I gave up on talking to them a while back thankfully!

[steviewevie]

19 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Who would they vote for?

Reform UK.

[steviewevie]

 

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, mattiloy said:

True enough but it seems like he’s been preparing the ground for classic blue labour policies: social conservatism with more or less a carbon copy of Sunak’s plans on the economy (marginally more spending but still a focus on ’responsible’ fiscal conservatism especially at the backend of the pandemic recovery). Indeed if the rumours are true that he’s going to drop soft left Dodds and promote Rachel ’austerity’ Reeves to shadow chancellor then it is still less hopeful.

But we’ll see. Hopefully there is a change in tack after this Hartlepool stuff but so far there has been nothing to suggest that he will come out all guns blazing with some radical progressive spending plan.

Still think the main issue with Corbynism was the messenger rather than the message.

 

 

The  problemn is how long its taken some to spot where the weekness wasn in their plan

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They wanted the policies but between the man and the media’s portrayal of him, he couldn’t sell it. He might as well have been talking about magic beans. But Starmer has a suit and a haircut and a knighthood.

 

 

And trust in British society be valuss that match most peoples

 

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Which i deride, but it should make him a better salesman so long as he is selling something people want. New labour isn’t it.

He a better salesman than those who can't get it

Edited April 6, 2021 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

18 hours ago, mattiloy said:

 

From what I’ve read, many in the shadow cabinet have been muzzled with Starmer’s team trying to micromanage messaging.

 

 

But you never noticed or commented en Corbyn did that you talked about a rightwig plot to destoycCorbyn to when shadow cabinet members made public some of what was going on. From the leadership and called People who mentioned it hatersor worse.

The current shadow cabinet have their own agency and profile to get their message out there. They should use their position to forward the cause.

 

 

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But the blame doesn’t rest solely on Starmers shoulders but with the whole stinking labour

 

 

Members with double standards.

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 to win/progress/new labour faction who staged the at first sneaky (starmers election), then suddenly very unsneaky and aggressive seizure of party and policy and are now reaping the consequences. New labour’s corporate politics was intensely unpopular in the end.

 

Who hates labour for aiming to win only those  who don't want labour to win.

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Between the trajectory of the polling and the abysmal state of finances (thanks to unnecessary settling of lawsuits and mass exodus of membership). Labour is on the fast track to oblivion. I’ll make a prediction that if Starmer is still in charge at the next election and stays on this course policy wise, they will be lucky to get in the mid 20 %s nationally.

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by eFestivals

[mattiloy]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

But you never noticed or commented en Corbyn did that you talked about a rightwig plot to destoycCorbyn to when shadow cabinet members made public some of what was going on. From the leadership and called People who mentioned it hatersor worse.

The current shadow cabinet have their own agency and profile to get their message out there. They should use their position to forward the cause.

Who hates labour for aiming to win only those  who don't want labour to win.

 

? as far as i remember many prominent MPs from the right of the party (yvette cooper, chukka umunna, Liz kendal and more) refused to join Corbyn’s shadow cabinet, those that did conspired against him, with Hilary Benn admitting as much and subsequently being sacked causing many others to resign and hold a vote of no confidence.

’Labour to win’ is just the name of the faction mate. And something of a misnomer, they are professional losers and make no mistake, if Starmer heeds their call and is this hollow, corporatist, transatlantic new labour guy then Labour will be obliterated in the next election.

Edited April 7, 2021 by mattiloy

[eFestivals]

39 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

? as far as i remember many prominent MPs from the right of the party (yvette cooper, chukka umunna, Liz kendal and more) refused to join Corbyn’s shadow cabinet, those that did conspired against him, with Hilary Benn admitting as much and subsequently being sacked causing many others to resign and hold a vote of no confidence.

 

 

 

I'm talking about the shadow cabinet members who published letters saying how they'd Been publicly undermined by Corbyn and co

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’Labour to win’ is just the name of the faction mate.

 

And a purpose and strategy a strategy which doesn't pandert o your faction and causes you to undermine their efforts

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And something of a misnomer, they are professional losers and make no mistake, if Starmer heeds their call and is this hollow, corporatist, transatlantic new labour guy then Labour will be obliterated in the next election.

Corbyn as the loser causing some of Labours worst ever election results... It looks likely that starmer will do similar to how Corbyn did at one set of May locals which was proclaimed as a great victory by the Corbyn faction.. were gonna see some more of those double standards in a few weeks.

[mattiloy]

21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

I'm talking about the shadow cabinet members who published letters saying how they'd Been publicly undermined by Corbyn and co

And a purpose and strategy a strategy which doesn't pandert o your faction and causes you to undermine their efforts

Corbyn as the loser causing some of Labours worst ever election results... It looks likely that starmer will do similar to how Corbyn did at one set of May locals which was proclaimed as a great victory by the Corbyn faction.. were gonna see some more of those double standards in a few weeks.

Depends what metric you use, on vote share he still beat Brown and Miliband

He also won Hartlepool twice - in 2017 with 52% of the vote. A full 10% higher than Starmer is currently polling in the constituency poll done by Survation.

Then consider that Starmer is supposed to be the electable one and then, tell me again that the ’labour to win’ name is not one big lol

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

? as far as i remember many prominent MPs from the right of the party (yvette cooper, chukka umunna, Liz kendal and more) refused to join Corbyn’s shadow cabinet, those that did conspired against him, with Hilary Benn admitting as much and subsequently being sacked causing many others to resign and hold a vote of no confidence.

’Labour to win’ is just the name of the faction mate. And something of a misnomer, they are professional losers and make no mistake, if Starmer heeds their call and is this hollow, corporatist, transatlantic new labour guy then Labour will be obliterated in the next election.

Nothing about how corbyn refused to serve starnmer by being too stupid about the anti semetism report. 

[eFestivals]

23 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Depends what metric you use, on vote share he still beat Brown and Miliband

He also won Hartlepool twice - in 2017 with 52% of the vote. A full 10% higher than Starmer is currently polling in the constituency poll done by Survation.

Then consider that Starmer is supposed to be the electable one and then, tell me again that the ’labour to win’ name is not one big lol

Labour trying to win isn't laughable that was labour with a leader who didn't reflect anything of the countries values who thought Russia was more trustworthy over Salisbury than the UK institutions. 

Edited April 7, 2021 by eFestivals

[mattiloy]

15 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Labour trying to win isn't laughable that was labour with a leader who didn't reflect anything of the countries values who thought Russia was more trustworthy over Salisbury than the UK institutions. 

I didn’t say that did I? I said the self bestowed title of ’labour to win’ by a faction that is incapable of winning, is funny.

Why is it such a common thing for aggro-centrists to misquote yourself back to you in an argument? Idk if they are deliberately trying to spin it to fit their argument or they are just so in the habit of reading what they want to read.

Also the concept of a common set of ’values’ shared by everybody in the UK, or even a plurality, is nonsensical. There is great diversity in beliefs and, amongst people with similar beliefs there is great diversity in the willingness to compromise on one or another of those beliefs. Politics is plain and simply coalition building.
 

I think Starmer is at a fork in the road. But the further down this right wing cul de sac that he goes, the less likely it is that he can build that coalition.

[eFestivals]

2 hours ago, mattiloy said:

I didn’t say that did I? I said the self bestowed title of ’labour to win’ by a faction that is incapable of winning, is funny.

It's a faction that came to exist after the Corbyn anti win faction had been in control.

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Why is it such a common thing for aggro-centrists to misquote yourself back to you in an argument? Idk if they are deliberately trying to spin it to fit their argument or they are just so in the habit of reading what they want to read.

Awis an agrocentralist something different to the Agro fuck off and join the tories morons.

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Also the concept of a common set of ’values’ shared by everybody in the UK, or even a plurality, is nonsensical.

Someone who will be in charge of the countries institutions needs to have trust in them else the electorate won't have trust in that person

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There is great diversity in beliefs and, amongst people with similar beliefs there is great diversity in the willingness to compromise on one or another of those beliefs. Politics is plain and simply coalition building.

 

 

 

 

Which isn't rejectioning the coalition that is the institutions.just because of a hatred of history.

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I think Starmer is at a fork in the road. But the further down this right wing cul de sac that he goes, the less likely it is that he can build that coalition.

The more the party members invent a false narrative the harder it gets for him. Your everything you criticised of Corbyn's opponents.ask yourself if you want a labour govt or if you only want onre on your terms cos the govt of the country is about satisfying just you. Others see that and other things you say you want and don't want that its all about just you.

Edited April 7, 2021 by eFestivals

[Homer]

3 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Depends what metric you use, on vote share he still beat Brown and Miliband

Election results?