news & politics:discussion

[topmarksbri]

25 minutes ago, Gilgamesh69 said:

Difference is that centrists are relevant now, what with Starmer being the leader of the so-called opposition. Corbyn is no longer particularly relevant anymore, and yet his haters still keep going on about him.

He's the ex leader of the party who's still a major political figure and is representative of a wing of the party - much like people (naming no names 😉 ) always bang on about Blair/blairites when really what they're referring to are centrists or the "soft left".

Along with Blair, Corbyn is the most important figure of the party in the 21st Century. People talked about the Benninite wing of the party long after he was chairman of the NEC and this is no different.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, topmarksbri said:

He's the ex leader of the party who's still a major political figure and is representative of a wing of the party - much like people (naming no names 😉 ) always bang on about Blair/blairites when really what they're referring to are centrists or the "soft left".

Along with Blair, Corbyn is the most important figure of the party in the 21st Century. People talked about the Benninite wing of the party long after he was chairman of the NEC and this is no different.

Corbyn is only important because of the damage he's caused..

[steviewevie]

13 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Corbyn is only important because of the damage he's caused..

kin'ell again.

I am no fanboy of Corbyn but there are definitely some positives that came out of his time as leader. Huge increase in labour membership, especially with younger people. A manifesto that was considered radical at the time, but now less so...and should be the blueprint for future labour manifestos. I slag him off especially with the antisemitism thing and his supporters do my head in sometimes on here and on twitter, but in the end he was a good man with principles,  but not in tune with enough people in the country to ever be electable.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

kin'ell again.

I am no fanboy of Corbyn but there are definitely some positives that came out of his time as leader. Huge increase in labour membership, especially with younger people. A manifesto that was considered radical at the time, but now less so...and should be the blueprint for future labour manifestos. I slag him off especially with the antisemitism thing and his supporters do my head in sometimes on here and on twitter, but in the end he was a good man with principles,  but not in tune with enough people in the country to ever be electable.

Membershioipnumbersbmefuckcuk all the tories have sod all members and keep on winning Labour shouted loudly about their high numbers which only further damaged the votes they got because lots of the new members were morons happy to damage the party. Telling anyone who voiced any criticism to fuck off, and join the tories. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by eFestivals

[Zoo Music Girl]

7 hours ago, steviewevie said:

when the time comes? wtf are on about.

I liked Corbyn's policies, but didn't have much truck with Corbyn...weak on antisemitism, weak on brexit, shitty with the media, but he certainly enjoyed his moment on the pyrammid stage and those stupid chants. preferred McDonnell.

Apart from preferring McDonnell (who I don't have a strong opinion about), this is pretty much word for word my feelings on Corbyn. I still voted for him twice. Will vote for Starmer too, but definitely don't think he's perfect. He has got more chance of appealing to the likes of my Tory-voting dad but that feels a way off tbh.

[JoeyT]

 

[mattiloy]

18 hours ago, fraybentos1 said:

You're defo trolling at this point 😂 even their lowest polling has them well above that after a bad couple months. We get it you don't like Starmer lol

 

12 minutes ago, JoeyT said:

 

 

😎

[fraybentos1]

37 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

 

 

😎

I've said it before and I'll say it again, poll trends are more useful info than individual polls. I am admitting that this has been a shite time for Labour and Starmer isn't doing well. The graph posted also shows 2 things: Labour and Tories were neck and neck not too long ago, look at Feb/ March 2020 lol- I doubt you'd have posted this with such glee then when Corbyn was leader.

Also, on a separate note- no way the Greens get 8 percent. About 5% of that will go back to Labour for sure at election time.

I don't think Starmer has had a good few months however I do think he deserves till 2024 to prove his worth.

[steviewevie]

15 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, poll trends are more useful info than individual polls. I am admitting that this has been a shite time for Labour and Starmer isn't doing well. The graph posted also shows 2 things: Labour and Tories were neck and neck not too long ago, look at Feb/ March 2020 lol- I doubt you'd have posted this with such glee then when Corbyn was leader.

Also, on a separate note- no way the Greens get 8 percent. About 5% of that will go back to Labour for sure at election time.

I don't think Starmer has had a good few months however I do think he deserves till 2024 to prove his worth.

also massively affected by covid and vaccines.

[fraybentos1]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

also massively affected by covid and vaccines.

Yes defo a vaccine bounce there too. As I say, I think Starmer deserves an election to be judged so he has 3 years. He seems more a Kinnock than a Blair though. Maybe he will pave the way for someone else to win in 2029 or whenever.

One thing is for sure, he started out from a horrific position, it was a nigh-on impossibility of him winning a majority in 2024. A hung parly with Labour biggest party is probs the best hope for 2024 imo.

Believe it or not, I'm not a tory @steviewevie😇

 

[steviewevie]

What labour should do is wait till the massive defeat in the general election in 2023/4 then Starmer will be replaced with someone from right like Reeves and then wait till the massive defeat in the general election in 2027/2028 and then replace her with someone from the left...etc...

[Ozanne]

13 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

What labour should do is wait till the massive defeat in the general election in 2023/4 then Starmer will be replaced with someone from right like Reeves and then wait till the massive defeat in the general election in 2027/2028 and then replace her with someone from the left...etc...

The vaccine bounce will fall away in time then the Tories will have to show the country what they stand for after the pandemic. I hope that people will start to see through them when the final support falls away as well. 

[mattiloy]

I’m a little confused, maybe someone can help me, why would the lib dems and the greens benefit from a vaccine bounce?

[Ryan1984]

5 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

The vaccine bounce will fall away in time then the Tories will have to show the country what they stand for after the pandemic. I hope that people will start to see through them when the final support falls away as well. 

The ‘Tory sleaze’ line Keir used the other day seems to have cut through - even into the Tory press...

[Ozanne]

2 minutes ago, Ryan1984 said:

The ‘Tory sleaze’ line Keir used the other day seems to have cut through - even into the Tory press...

Is that a historical line? Because he said it’s back which made me think it’s an attack line Labour of years passed used before. 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

 

 

😎

I thought corvbynites think all Polls are trash

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, Ryan1984 said:

The ‘Tory sleaze’ line Keir used the other day seems to have cut through - even into the Tory press...

It's a familiar line with the opublic and very believable. 

[jimmillen]

6 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Is that a historical line? Because he said it’s back which made me think it’s an attack line Labour of years passed used before. 

I wasn't old enough to pay too much attention to politics in the 90s, but pretty sure there were various sleaze scandals of Major's government that Blair was quick to capitalise on.

ETA: Case in point...

Edited April 16, 2021 by jimmillen

[Ozanne]

2 minutes ago, jimmillen said:

I wasn't old enough to pay too much attention to politics in the 90s, but pretty sure there were various sleaze scandals of Major's government that Blair was quick to capitalise on.

Ah yeah you are right, I couldn’t quite put my finger on it. Thanks!

[fraybentos1]

14 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

I’m a little confused, maybe someone can help me, why would the lib dems and the greens benefit from a vaccine bounce?

There's been a boost for the tories in recent weeks that can in part be attributed to the vaccine rollout. This poll does seem somewhat an outlier. 

Don't know how many times I can say this on this forum fs, individual polls aren't the best to judge, trends are. 

@mattiloywho would you replace Starmer with?

[Ryan1984]

7 minutes ago, jimmillen said:

I wasn't old enough to pay too much attention to politics in the 90s, but pretty sure there were various sleaze scandals of Major's government that Blair was quick to capitalise on.

ETA: Case in point...

Didn’t it refer to stuff like David Mellor dressing up as a baby for weird sex games as well?

[fraybentos1]

So in the last You Gov poll a week before for the London sampling - it was Lab 53, Con 31, this time it is Con 36 Lab 34. Clearly something not right there with the sampling.

[mattiloy]

4 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

There's been a boost for the tories in recent weeks that can in part be attributed to the vaccine rollout. This poll does seem somewhat an outlier. 

Don't know how many times I can say this on this forum fs, individual polls aren't the best to judge, trends are. 

@mattiloywho would you replace Starmer with?

Its trending downwards though. This is an outlier so far, but it wouldn’t be surprising if the moving average went that low in the coming weeks, the slope such as it is.

 

I wouldn’t replace him. It seems that electoral oblivion is the only way to permanently dislodge the progress careerist faction and once and for all bust this enduring myth that blue labour is electorally viable. I’m just going to sit back and watch.

[fraybentos1]

Just now, mattiloy said:

Its trending downwards though. This is an outlier so far, but it wouldn’t be surprising if the moving average went that low in the coming weeks, the slope such as it is.

 

I wouldn’t replace him. It seems that electoral oblivion is the only way to permanently dislodge the progress careerist faction and once and for all bust this enduring myth that blue labour is electorally viable. I’m just going to sit back and watch.

Anyone you'd suggest as an early contender for 2024 after Starmer's supposed crushing defeat?

[mattiloy]

1 minute ago, fraybentos1 said:

Anyone you'd suggest as an early contender for 2024 after Starmer's supposed crushing defeat?

Burnham would be the better big tent choice but of course is without a seat. Steve Rotheram liverpool Metro mayor is a bit more left and bit more real (formally a brickie) but likeable and pragmatic too. But again, without a seat in the commons.

I like Dan Carden.

Ultimately the selection (and deselection) process needs to be better. Sadly Starmer had taken a wrecking ball to the grassroots and a lot of talented young folk who could have been nextgen MPs will now have deserted the party. Those that remain and will end up being the labour candidates of tomorrow are the carbon copy of the talent desert that is the PLP - unpopular, early balding young folks who rock up to uni lectures in a suit