Thoughts go out to those in Berlin

[Nobody Interesting]

My thoughts go out to everyone effected by hatred, war, hunger and all the things we as a world could stop tomorrow if there was collective responsibility and desire.

Not just in one country but in all the forgotten places all over the world and those places the media chooses to ignore.

Neil has hit several nails on the head in his replies on this thread but sadly the media and some politicians simply use specific events to further their cause and the push towards the extremes of right and left and all that this will probably bring to the people of the world.

[zahidf]

31 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Although we shouldn't cast assertions without the facts, what would your guess be? A disgruntled Chinese woman? An elderly man from Wisconsin?

We all make assumptions every day. It's perfectly reasonable for them to make assumptions. It's their job after all to predict future events and decide what's best for the country and people based on those assumptions.

Its not farages job. And there is something to be said for not saying incidenary stuff until the facts are clearer

[Alex DeLarge]

Farage may have had a point how accepting refugees with no background checks could lead to situations like this, but any point he had when straight out of the window when he accused the widower of a victim of terrorism to be a terrorist himself.

[eFestivals]

Just now, Alex DeLarge said:

Farage may have had a point how accepting refugees with no background checks could lead to situations like this

And it can just as easily be said that some people had a point when they said Farage's rhetoric would lead to right wing violence, perhaps even murder.

If Merkel has blood on her hands for the actions of people which aren't her or instructed by her, then Farage similarly has Jo Cox's blood on his hands.

 

[Alex DeLarge]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

And it can just as easily be said that some people had a point when they said Farage's rhetoric would lead to right wing violence, perhaps even murder.

If Merkel has blood on her hands for the actions of people which aren't her or instructed by her, then Farage similarly has Jo Cox's blood on his hands.

Yes that's very true, I remember many prominent leave figures telling people not to politicise Jo Cox's death who are now doing that very same thing to this attack.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Yes that's very true, I remember many prominent leave figures telling people not to politicise Jo Cox's death who are now doing that very same thing to this attack.

yup. It's not so much what Farage has said about Merkel that's offensive, but his self-serving double standards around his inconsistency in having rejected the same thrown his way over Jo Cox's murder.

At the end of the day none of us are our brother's keeper and so the responsibility for any bad act falls solely on the perpetrator (unless they're acting under the clear instruction of another). We can't have a sensible society unless it does work that way.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

1 hour ago, zahidf said:

Its not farages job. And there is something to be said for not saying incidenary stuff until the facts are clearer

Yeah there is a lot of toxic stuff in politics these days, something inherited I think from more direct speech, but it's very much his job to look at world events and decide what is best for the people in his constituency, and then his country as a whole.

It also seems like his unease over the influx of refugees and the economic migrants was unfortunately true. We've been lucky in the last few years, with some fine police work and a huge moat to boot and also a lot smaller Muslim population than say France, that we haven't suffered so many atrocities.

Farage most definitely incited hatred in the UK with some of his words, but then so too has Merkel been too naive, as has Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, France and so on.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, zahidf said:

And there is something to be said for not saying incidenary stuff until the facts are clearer

oh, the irony!

 

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

It also seems like his unease over the influx of refugees and the economic migrants was unfortunately true

it's currently a less true thing than if he'd said the same about managed migration he says he supports.

Sometimes the facts are a bit too inconvenient for the truth to handle, tho I guess if Nigel was personally doing the vetting we'd all be fine.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

it's currently a less true thing than if he'd said the same about managed migration he says he supports.

Sometimes the facts are a bit too inconvenient for the truth to handle, tho I guess if Nigel was personally doing the vetting we'd all be fine.

Wait, it's not true he was against mass refugee migration or an influx of people from countries who are acting as refugees?

 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Wait, it's not true he was against mass refugee migration or an influx of people from countries who are acting as refugees?

I'm saying the majority of attacks have been by people who've been thru the normal vetting processes of the sort Farage says he supports - or none at all because they're natives - and not from the large number of refugees who came thru Greece a year or two ago.

Edited December 21, 2016 by eFestivals

[mjsell]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

At the end of the day none of us are our brother's keeper and so the responsibility for any bad act falls solely on the perpetrator (unless they're acting under the clear instruction of another). We can't have a sensible society unless it does work that way.

Not that I disagree, but how does this belief view the likes of mental health and those that are in need of someone being 'responsible' of them for them to be a part of a 'sensible society'?

 

[CaledonianGonzo]

2 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Farage was right

Summarised that for you.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, mjsell said:

Not that I disagree, but how does this belief view the likes of mental health and those that are in need of someone being 'responsible' of them for them to be a part of a 'sensible society'?

I'm not trying to suggest the system might work perfectly, but (in regard to crime) mental health issues are recognised and factored in to judgements/sentences given. 

So take what i said as only applying to those without mental health issues.

[mjsell]

47 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'm not trying to suggest the system might work perfectly, but (in regard to crime) mental health issues are recognised and factored in to judgements/sentences given. 

So take what i said as only applying to those without mental health issues.

So would the people that are responsible for treating those with mental health issues be partly to blame if they were to commit something of this magnitude? Like, say a government that are under-funding care?

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, mjsell said:

So would the people that are responsible for treating those with mental health issues be partly to blame if they were to commit something of this magnitude? Like, say a government that are under-funding care?

I'd say that's a cop out.

The govt is merely 'the people'. It's 'the people' who are underfunding.

But it's also 'the people' that the consequences might come back on, tho I'm not sure if natural justice like that makes me feel better about it.

One thing tho is certain, that no matter how well intentioned a govt, some people will always fall thru the cracks in one way or another, and society will have to take any damage as a consequence of having a society in the first place.

So it's ultimately more about getting your thinking around the trade-offs we make for what we have than looking to finger someone with blame around mental health, I'd say. Perhaps that angle is the angle into better funding too.

[Mr.Tease]

11 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

Why do you think so. The primary duty of any head of state is to keep the population safe. By allowing so many people into Germany in such a sort space of time that adequate checks couldn't be made on every one of them, and again assuming one of these people was the driver of the lorry, it could be argued that she failed in that duty and therefore must accept some responsibility for what happened.

If she hadn't let those refugees in, many of them would likely have died- would she have had blood on her hands then or do only white lives matter? What about those refugees who go on to make contributions that benefit Germany and save lives, will you then herald her for saving lives? 

Should countries not let in refugees now? 

[Mr.Tease]

6 hours ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Farage may have had a point how accepting refugees with no background checks could lead to situations like this, but any point he had when straight out of the window when he accused the widower of a victim of terrorism to be a terrorist himself.

The suspect had had a background check, was refused asylum and was suspected as being high risk and linked to extremists,  sounds like a security mess up. 

[Ommadawn]

2 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

Should countries not let in refugees now? 

Well, if they have a tendency to drive lorries into crowds of innocent people then maybe not. The alternative is to let everyone in, knowing there's a good chance that some will be potential terrorists and therefore put the rest of the population at additional risk. Maybe the answer is to allow everyone in and put them into vast camps to be processed which sounds pretty distasteful to me.

Who'd be a leader of a Country? I certainly don't fancy it.

[Chawk]

14 hours ago, eFestivals said:

That's my point.

They either both hold some responsibility, or neither do.

Neither of them carried out the act themselves, tho both can be linked to the acts indirectly via their actions. If the 'indirectly' means anything it means exactly the same thing for both - that their actions helped bring about the action of another.

Which is what Brendan Cox was inferring, in case people didn't make the connection.

[Mr.Tease]

8 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

Well, if they have a tendency to drive lorries into crowds of innocent people then maybe not. The alternative is to let everyone in, knowing there's a good chance that some will be potential terrorists and therefore put the rest of the population at additional risk. Maybe the answer is to allow everyone in and put them into vast camps to be processed which sounds pretty distasteful to me.

Who'd be a leader of a Country? I certainly don't fancy it.

How many Syrian refugees have driven trucks into people? None. The Nice truck driver wasn't even an asylum seeker, he had French residency via Tunisia. 

[mcshed]

31 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

How many Syrian refugees have driven trucks into people? None. The Nice truck driver wasn't even an asylum seeker, he had French residency via Tunisia. 

But but you don't understand the refugees are brown and the people in the trucks are brown and I'm white and scared.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

Well, if they have a tendency to drive lorries into crowds of innocent people then maybe not

but they don't, do they? :rolleyes:

Germany let in a million of so refugees, and had one drive into a crowd.

France let in none of those refugees, and had a frenchman drive into a crowd.

I guess France should expel the French.

[Nobody Interesting]

20 hours ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Farage may have had a point how accepting refugees with no background checks could lead to situations like this, but any point he had when straight out of the window when he accused the widower of a victim of terrorism to be a terrorist himself.

Except if you look into the German system there were and still are background checks. It is only the media telling people there were not.

The person initially arrested was living in an immigration centre with many others where those checks are undertaken and the mad now being searched for went through all the checks and should have been deported.

Sadly the media and certain politicians seem happy to spread untruths about what is really happening and even more sadly many members of the public suck it up and use it to back up their own intolerances (Not in anyway suggested this is you btw).

[zahidf]

Some facts about the suspect