Thoughts go out to those in Berlin

[guypjfreak]

10 hours ago, The Nal said:

Still amazes me that Germany are giving asylum to violent criminals who have recently been released from prison and deported from a neighbouring country. 

Well said old son 

[arcade fireman]

10 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

So I can't use the pronoun 'we' without some hysterical comment from you? Right...

I'm not here standing up for Trump, I'm just here, shocked that so many people are putting their head in the sand about an obvious and clear problem.

What bigotry have I said? Please show me precise comments where I've said that that one colour person or something similar is better? Just because you're getting upset by what I've said doesn't make you right. It just sounds like you don't use a lot of rational thoughts or facts, just your emotions to determine the truth in something.

And fucking hell, I've not ever said the West is this perfect place Utopia. Please present evidence when I have.

What is the "obvious and clear problem"?

Islamic terrorism?! I don't think anyone has their heads in the sand that Islamic terrorism is a serious problem - indeed one of the greatest challenges of our time. People were being deliberately facetious with you because you were making illogical and nonsensical arguments linking in Merkel's "open door" policy towards refugees with this attack and joining in with the dog whistle racism of Farage.

And it was racism from Farage - from the outset it was of course highly likely this was an act of Islamic terrorism, likely committed by someone from an Arab/North African state. However to see everyone from that part of the world as a homogenous entity and to link refugees (who also happen to be largely from that part of the world) with terrorists has very little basis in reality. Pretty much all of these European attacks have either been carried out by residents/nationals of European countries or have been on terror watchlists. I believe a couple of the Paris attackers may have been the exception to this but the attack would have happened without them too. 

The thing is even if this had proved to be someone who Merkel let in as part of her policy, it should have changed very little. It still would have been an exception. Of course if we suddenly start getting a spate of attacks from refugees then I think it would be reasonable to have a discussion at this point, but we are nowhere near that point and nor would we be even if Anis Amri turned out to be a refugee.

Merkel's policy is a big test, and certainly not without its potential downsides. Not so much re the risk of terrorism - any group of hundreds of thousands of people is going to contain bad apples whether they be refugees, other migrants or those already living there. There will be people in any group that large who will rape and murder, and yes there may be a tiny, tiny minority who may have terrorist motives - but this is a given. But it does risk social cohesion in the country, the rise of the far right etc. However if more European countries had accepted their responsibilities, particularly since the policies of our democratically elected governments were at least one factor in creating this unrest then Merkel wouldn't have needed to go to such lengths.  

[Mr.Tease]

13 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

I only just saw this, but I don't really understand your meaning. My anti-oppression? You mean that I stand by women, gays, moderate Muslims against radical ideas in Islamic ideology? My belief in Western what? Enlightenment?!

It's the hypocrisy- you're basically a bigot, who seems to think they're actually some great enlightened egalitarian- you're anti-multi-cultural so presumably to maintain western values of freedom of belief, speech, tolerance etc, everyone has to conform to believing what you believe, oh and you get to decide what that culture should be. You sit at home and imagine what muslims must all be like (despite not knowing any) and then decide that not only you, but the entire west, can never get on with them based on the power of your imagination.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Mr.Tease

[Mr.Tease]

13 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Yes, but what is the nation that ISIS are trying to form? It's a religious Caliphate. They're trying to create a nation of Islam.

Perhaps you could explain why it seems that Islam is so easily manipulated in to attracting people? Could it be, because people believe in it?

ISIS is extreme, but they're supported financially and spiritually by Saudi Arabia - again, that's just another fact.

Stop using your moral compass to cloud your reasoned judgement!

I don't even understand what that sentence means. All religions are used and manipulated to manipulate people into joining them and doing what they want (some people are more vulnerable to it than others)- look at what Christianity was and is used for (still cited to deprive gay people of rights).

Do you really think people joining ISIS are attracted to it for religious reasons (if it's religion they want, why not just go to Saudi Arabia? or are they actually attracted to its homicidal qualities?) Or does it help them to express their rage and feel important?  Look at the profiles of all the ISIS terrorists, they're pretty much the same- background of drugs, sex outside of marriage, petty criminals with difficulty controlling their anger and prone to rage- hardly religious monks.

And Saudi Arabia (which I agree is horrific regime) are supported by us, and sold weapons by us, and even put on the council of human rights by us so there goes your moral superiority.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Mr.Tease

[eFestivals]

18 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Yeah I accept there are around 1.6 billion people in the world who believe in Islam. But I never said we should discriminate against all Muslims - far from it. I'm trying to stand up for the moderate Muslims by pointing the finger at the radicals and saying there's a problem. We should be able to stand up - with moderate Muslims standing by us - and say without fear that something in their ideology is bullshit, just like we do with any other religion or political ideology. A modern moderate Protestant understands that there is nothing wrong with being gay - because so many people have challenged him/her about it for the past thousand years. The same process has to happen with Islam.

Does the world pass you by? All of that is already happening.

And yet there's no more need for all Muslims to stand up and condemn the violence done in their name than there was for the individuals of the Irish republic to stand up and condemn the IRA.

All good people condemn violence. The proportion of good people in the islamic world is no different to any other part of the world.

 

18 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

But to say there is no connection between the two is just such a mistake.

There's no more of a connection as the P.IRA had to the Irish Republic

 

18 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

At the moment terrorism is overwhelmingly coming from one group

Not true.

FARC (tho that's just stopped in the last few months).

The mad buddhists of East Asia.

Etc, etc, etc. 

 

18 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

whatever your belief on the nature of Islam really is, but we also have to think more analytically than only saying 'radicalism' means only terrorists.

And we have to think more analytically than terrorist means Muslim.

 

18 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Where do they get their ideas from? Where do they get their support from? Who sympathies with them? That number is far larger than the individuals who only seem to garner press and public attention as being the 'radicals'. If that were true, why aren't Christians and Hindus waging a global war of terror on non-believers?

Are you aware of how people in the USA hugely funded the IRA's violence?

 

18 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Radicalism for me means a variety of things. Radical ideas that gays should be killed, or that women are low on the totem pole, or that victims of rape are actually the ones to be blamed. All from the word of God, not men.

All from the word of the Christian god as much as any other. :rolleyes:

 

18 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Yeah, exactly! More Muslims die in Pakistan and India and Iran because of Muslim on Muslim violence. But they're still doing it out of God's voice, still killing the non-believers. I don't know if you've noticed, but the Sunni and Shia populations don't really like each other, but they both take their ideas from the same book. So either they're both right, or one of them is right, or neither, but they're still quite happy to use violence in the name of something - using the same book.
 

and their disagreement only gets to show it's nothing the book is actually saying, but is the intergretation a tiny number of individuals are taking from that book. That it's not the book saying it, it's all in their heads.

THAT is being the analytical you say we should be. Making a concdlusion "it's the book" is bad analysis; if it wasn't all readers of the book would end up thinking the same.

 

[eFestivals]

18 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

What do you think is the main reason for the Middle East and North Africa being held back in science and enlightenment? Hundreds of years ago the Middle East was an amazing bedrock of science and mathematics, but the introduction of religion greatly diminished their societal evolution.

Oh piss off, and read some history instead of making it up.

You might as well be Farage dropping that factually false line.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

2 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

It's the hypocrisy- you're basically a bigot, who seems to think they're actually some great enlightened egalitarian- you're anti-multi-cultural so presumably to maintain western values of freedom of belief, speech, tolerance etc, everyone has to conform to believing what you believe, oh and you get to decide what that culture should be. You sit at home and imagine what muslims must all be like (despite not knowing any) and then decide that not only you, but the entire west, can never get on with them based on the power of your imagination.

Oh the irony

[Cornelius_Fudge]

47 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Oh piss off, and read some history instead of making it up.

You might as well be Farage dropping that factually false line.

Hahaha, jeez. It's well documented, have you ever read a history book yourself? Look up Nizam Al Mulk.
The tolerance for an alternative opinion here is genuinely shocking. 

Glastonbury should be about leveled, balanced discussion, but so far you've told me to "fuck off" and now "piss off", without providing me with any statistical anaylsis of a non-problem within Muslim countries.

The freedoms and pleasures you enjoy at Glastonbury wouldn't be allowed in pretty much all Muslim countries. Especially the for women or homosexuals, yet you defend them because you like to take the moral high ground on everything, even if it contradicts your own values. Your naivety shows

Edited December 24, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge

[Cornelius_Fudge]

52 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Does the world pass you by? All of that is already happening.

And yet there's no more need for all Muslims to stand up and condemn the violence done in their name than there was for the individuals of the Irish republic to stand up and condemn the IRA.

All good people condemn violence. The proportion of good people in the islamic world is no different to any other part of the world.

 

There's no more of a connection as the P.IRA had to the Irish Republic

 

Not true.

FARC (tho that's just stopped in the last few months).

The mad buddhists of East Asia.

Etc, etc, etc. 

 

And we have to think more analytically than terrorist means Muslim.

 

Are you aware of how people in the USA hugely funded the IRA's violence?

 

All from the word of the Christian god as much as any other.

 

and their disagreement only gets to show it's nothing the book is actually saying, but is the intergretation a tiny number of individuals are taking from that book. That it's not the book saying it, it's all in their heads.

THAT is being the analytical you say we should be. Making a concdlusion "it's the book" is bad analysis; if it wasn't all readers of the book would end up thinking the same.

 

I said world-wide terrorism. The rebels in Colombia don't have a billion people in the world to financially support them. You're comparing apples and oranges again.

When are people going to stop making this weird defense by bringing up the IRA as if I'm some how in favour of the IRA and not Islamic terror and radical thought.

I've haven't said anything bigoted against people, just criticising their religion, and it's bewildering how any body here lives their life contorting what others with different opinions say.

If there really is no connection to the Koran and their actions, like you say, then can you explain why so many honour killings, killings of homosexuals and stonings happen? You said they need an enlightenment stage with things like the internet etc. The last time I checked, places like Iran, Saudi Arabia etc have the internet and access to information. They're not as stupid as you make out. So, please, why do so many Muslims support radical ideas such as martial rape, beating of women, lashings for blogging? They're all radical thoughts and with your logic we'd have a large number of Christian terrorists around the world blowing shit up or following the Bible word for word. So why don't we see that happening? Please provide some evidence, without any of your theoretical opinion which really means nothing without statistics or facts to back it up. I provided you with the information that non-native refugees and immigrants in Germany cause more violence than native Germans. I provided you with statistics that show in Muslim majority countries violence against women, gays and non-believers/other religious groups are huge. The evidence to show that Christianity in Pakistan has been slowly killed off for example is startling and free to anyone who wants to look at it. Please, I'm begging you, show me some evidence that most have moderate opinions about alcohol, women, gays, children, non-believers. Just one thing.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge

[Cornelius_Fudge]

Anyway, look, I don't see why a simple discussion needed to get so heated. I haven't said anything against people, but a religion, criticizing an ideology.

It's Christmas Eve, peace and love to everyone this time of year. Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

[arcade fireman]

1 minute ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

If there really is no connection to the Koran and their actions, like you say, then can you explain why so many honour killings, killings of homosexuals and stonings happen? You said they need an enlightenment stage with things like the internet etc. The last time I checked, places like Iran, Saudi Arabia etc have the internet and access to information. They're not as stupid as you make out. So, please, why do so many Muslims support radical ideas such as martial rape, beating of women, lashings for blogging? They're all radical thoughts and with your logic we'd have a large number of Christian terrorists around the world blowing shit up or following the Bible word for word. So why don't we? Please provide some evidence, without any of your theoretical opinion which really means nothing without statistics or facts to back it up. I provided you with the information that non-native Germans cause more violence than native Germans. I provided you with statistics that show in Muslim majority countries violence against women, gays and non-believers/other religious groups are huge. The evidence to show that Christianity in Pakistan for example is startling and free to anyone who wants to look at it. Please, I'm begging you, show me some evidence that most have moderate opinions about alcohol, women, gays, children, non-believers. Just one thing.

Honour killings happen in other religions too:

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1991195,00.html

Plenty of non-Muslim countries (particularly sub-Saharan African Christian countries) can imprison people for being homosexual. And while both are disgusting, the death penalty is the exception not the rule amongst Muslim countries. And the principle of punishing homosexuality in the penal code is not confined to Muslim countries. Indeed even in India the Supreme Court voted to keep homosexuality illegal the other year. 

Stoning again isn't a frequent an occurrence even in the vast majority of Muslim countries (Wikipedia but fully sourced):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning

As this article shows it's on the statute book of a few countries but is hardly ever carried out and when it has it's been very infrequent. In fact the two places it seems to happen most frequently are Saudi and UAE - two countries our democratically elected Governments are very friendly with. Not that it makes it in any way a barbaric and reprehensible punishment, but you are equating something that happens a lot less frequently than you probably think to something a massive swathe of Muslims support. 

It's funny you are requesting evidence. Where on earth is your evidence that "so many Muslims" support these things? How many? Are we talking Muslims in Western countries many of whom follow their religion devoutly, but have grown up in relatively good surroundings? Or are we talking about Muslims in places like Afghanistan and Somalia many of whom all they've known is brutality and poverty? 

The three Abrahamic religions aren't actually that different, they all have similar roots (though maybe the New Testament would be excluded). Studies have shown violent passages are actually a lot more common in the Bible than in the Quran. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/violence-more-common-in-bible-than-quran-text-analysis-reveals-a6863381.html

After all, since you mentioned capital punishment for homosexuals, let us revel in this wonderful passage from Leviticus 20:13:

Quote

"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Probably the biggest difference in the Muslim world are that a lot of them are poor, far poorer than the vast majority of Christian countries. Most Christian countries are middle-high income - except in sub-Saharan Africa where horrendous things have been done in the name of Christianity - locking up homosexuals as said before, the mass spread of HIV/AIDS aded and abetted by a Catholic Church who railed against condom use, all sorts of fringe Christian cults in Nigeria engaged in paedophilia, kidnappings etc and if we're talking terrorism then the infamous Lord's Resistance Army made famous by the Kony video a few years ago. 

The ones that aren't poor are largely run by theocratic monarchies e.g. Saudi, UAE - many of which are supported by our own Governments. This isn't the Muslim people choosing to stone people to death or banning women from driving in the same way that we vote for things. This is about a highly powerful group of clerics who hold massive amounts of power - even over the monarchy themselves.  

Probably Turkey was the one which didn't fall into either of these categories and for many years it co-existed as a clearly identifiable Muslim country but also a tolerant, liberal place. Even now under the rule of Erdogan it's still hardly a beacon of intolerance. 

You want evidence that it's about the interpretation than the religion? Walk into any large workplace in a major city in the UK. There is a very good chance you will see Muslim women there. I work in the medical profession and there are Muslim women at the very top, being the main breadwinners for their family. At the same time they'll peel off when they can to do one of their daily prayers, they'll wear a covering over their head to work (not over their face)...I would never question them on their faith but I'm sure they would say they're good Muslims. 

Do you think they're wrong and they're not following their religion? Or do you think the truth is a bit more complicated than your simplistic analysis of the world? 

[arcade fireman]

Just saw your message above. Hopefully you're questioning some of your own ignorant views, but I very much doubt it. 

[stuartbert two hats]

1 hour ago, arcade fireman said:

Honour killings happen in other religions too:

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1991195,00.html

Plenty of non-Muslim countries (particularly sub-Saharan African Christian countries) can imprison people for being homosexual. And while both are disgusting, the death penalty is the exception not the rule amongst Muslim countries. And the principle of punishing homosexuality in the penal code is not confined to Muslim countries. Indeed even in India the Supreme Court voted to keep homosexuality illegal the other year. 

Stoning again isn't a frequent an occurrence even in the vast majority of Muslim countries (Wikipedia but fully sourced):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning

As this article shows it's on the statute book of a few countries but is hardly ever carried out and when it has it's been very infrequent. In fact the two places it seems to happen most frequently are Saudi and UAE - two countries our democratically elected Governments are very friendly with. Not that it makes it in any way a barbaric and reprehensible punishment, but you are equating something that happens a lot less frequently than you probably think to something a massive swathe of Muslims support. 

It's funny you are requesting evidence. Where on earth is your evidence that "so many Muslims" support these things? How many? Are we talking Muslims in Western countries many of whom follow their religion devoutly, but have grown up in relatively good surroundings? Or are we talking about Muslims in places like Afghanistan and Somalia many of whom all they've known is brutality and poverty? 

The three Abrahamic religions aren't actually that different, they all have similar roots (though maybe the New Testament would be excluded). Studies have shown violent passages are actually a lot more common in the Bible than in the Quran. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/violence-more-common-in-bible-than-quran-text-analysis-reveals-a6863381.html

After all, since you mentioned capital punishment for homosexuals, let us revel in this wonderful passage from Leviticus 20:13:

Probably the biggest difference in the Muslim world are that a lot of them are poor, far poorer than the vast majority of Christian countries. Most Christian countries are middle-high income - except in sub-Saharan Africa where horrendous things have been done in the name of Christianity - locking up homosexuals as said before, the mass spread of HIV/AIDS aded and abetted by a Catholic Church who railed against condom use, all sorts of fringe Christian cults in Nigeria engaged in paedophilia, kidnappings etc and if we're talking terrorism then the infamous Lord's Resistance Army made famous by the Kony video a few years ago. 

The ones that aren't poor are largely run by theocratic monarchies e.g. Saudi, UAE - many of which are supported by our own Governments. This isn't the Muslim people choosing to stone people to death or banning women from driving in the same way that we vote for things. This is about a highly powerful group of clerics who hold massive amounts of power - even over the monarchy themselves.  

Probably Turkey was the one which didn't fall into either of these categories and for many years it co-existed as a clearly identifiable Muslim country but also a tolerant, liberal place. Even now under the rule of Erdogan it's still hardly a beacon of intolerance. 

You want evidence that it's about the interpretation than the religion? Walk into any large workplace in a major city in the UK. There is a very good chance you will see Muslim women there. I work in the medical profession and there are Muslim women at the very top, being the main breadwinners for their family. At the same time they'll peel off when they can to do one of their daily prayers, they'll wear a covering over their head to work (not over their face)...I would never question them on their faith but I'm sure they would say they're good Muslims. 

Do you think they're wrong and they're not following their religion? Or do you think the truth is a bit more complicated than your simplistic analysis of the world? 

Here's the lovely passage that I think you intended to include:

The most holy and not at all violent Bible

If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads

 

[HalfAnIdiot]

11 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

The tolerance for an alternative opinion here is genuinely shocking. 

Glastonbury should be about leveled, balanced discussion, but so far you've told me to "fuck off" and now "piss off"......
 

The debate here is both thought provoking and entertaining. I've followed it closely and have benefitted from doing so.  However I am dissapointed with some of the closed minded attitudes that, at their worst, generate ad hominem attacks.

We live in a community of free speach. Please play the ball and not the man. You might learn something about the world and yourselves.

Merry Christmas.

[guypjfreak]

As this was my thread can you please kill it old son.. Tonight.. That way we can start the new year in good order.. Cheers.. G

[HalfAnIdiot]

Looking at the BBC tonight I find that the UK reacrion to Berlin is to build a 'Ring Of Steel' around the sqare mile.

So indicative of the values of our 'leaders'. 

Poor show.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

23 hours ago, arcade fireman said:

Honour killings happen in other religions too:

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1991195,00.html

Plenty of non-Muslim countries (particularly sub-Saharan African Christian countries) can imprison people for being homosexual. And while both are disgusting, the death penalty is the exception not the rule amongst Muslim countries. And the principle of punishing homosexuality in the penal code is not confined to Muslim countries. Indeed even in India the Supreme Court voted to keep homosexuality illegal the other year. 

Stoning again isn't a frequent an occurrence even in the vast majority of Muslim countries (Wikipedia but fully sourced):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning

As this article shows it's on the statute book of a few countries but is hardly ever carried out and when it has it's been very infrequent. In fact the two places it seems to happen most frequently are Saudi and UAE - two countries our democratically elected Governments are very friendly with. Not that it makes it in any way a barbaric and reprehensible punishment, but you are equating something that happens a lot less frequently than you probably think to something a massive swathe of Muslims support. 

It's funny you are requesting evidence. Where on earth is your evidence that "so many Muslims" support these things? How many? Are we talking Muslims in Western countries many of whom follow their religion devoutly, but have grown up in relatively good surroundings? Or are we talking about Muslims in places like Afghanistan and Somalia many of whom all they've known is brutality and poverty? 

The three Abrahamic religions aren't actually that different, they all have similar roots (though maybe the New Testament would be excluded). Studies have shown violent passages are actually a lot more common in the Bible than in the Quran. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/violence-more-common-in-bible-than-quran-text-analysis-reveals-a6863381.html

After all, since you mentioned capital punishment for homosexuals, let us revel in this wonderful passage from Leviticus 20:13:

Probably the biggest difference in the Muslim world are that a lot of them are poor, far poorer than the vast majority of Christian countries. Most Christian countries are middle-high income - except in sub-Saharan Africa where horrendous things have been done in the name of Christianity - locking up homosexuals as said before, the mass spread of HIV/AIDS aded and abetted by a Catholic Church who railed against condom use, all sorts of fringe Christian cults in Nigeria engaged in paedophilia, kidnappings etc and if we're talking terrorism then the infamous Lord's Resistance Army made famous by the Kony video a few years ago. 

The ones that aren't poor are largely run by theocratic monarchies e.g. Saudi, UAE - many of which are supported by our own Governments. This isn't the Muslim people choosing to stone people to death or banning women from driving in the same way that we vote for things. This is about a highly powerful group of clerics who hold massive amounts of power - even over the monarchy themselves.  

Probably Turkey was the one which didn't fall into either of these categories and for many years it co-existed as a clearly identifiable Muslim country but also a tolerant, liberal place. Even now under the rule of Erdogan it's still hardly a beacon of intolerance. 

You want evidence that it's about the interpretation than the religion? Walk into any large workplace in a major city in the UK. There is a very good chance you will see Muslim women there. I work in the medical profession and there are Muslim women at the very top, being the main breadwinners for their family. At the same time they'll peel off when they can to do one of their daily prayers, they'll wear a covering over their head to work (not over their face)...I would never question them on their faith but I'm sure they would say they're good Muslims. 

Do you think they're wrong and they're not following their religion? Or do you think the truth is a bit more complicated than your simplistic analysis of the world? 

I wasn't going to reply again, but that's such a strange post.

Saying something happens in another country or religion, therefore these deaths and killings are okay and therefore not up for criticism, seems an odd way to explain something, as if somehow, I'm saying Christian killings are okay - they are equally not good for humanity

Did you even read that Wikipedia page? They state quite clearly that the majority of Islamic countries use it and the two where it's 'illegal' state it happens anyway. And yes, if the Aztecs did it as well and were now operating a global holy war, people would also want to criticise them too. Again, it's about perspective. Islamic terror is happening on such a large scale across the world, and that's just not true of the Christian radicals you site.

It's good at least that you can are honest that a lot of the migrants have come from places where brutality and sexual violence is the norm. At least we're getting somewhere on that front.

Yes, passages are just as frequent in the Bible, but then why is Islam different? Because it's the literal word of God. The trouble when things are literal, people are allowed to interpret them literally, because it's exactly what God is commanding you to do. Whereas the Bible is open to interpretation, because it was written by men, the Koran wasn't. There's a huge difference right there.

I don't know why you bring money in to it. For example in China, they have literally hundreds of millions of people below the poverty line, but they're one of the most secure and safest places in the world. They also have high punishments for doing crime, but what is one of the differences? They don't have a religious book leading them and telling them that the word of God allows them to kill. 

As for the women you've talked about 'in any large workplace in the UK' - again something anecdotal and completely unproven - if I did meet a woman and she "identified" as Muslim, that means precisely zilch for your argument. She might drink, she might have had sex outside of marriage, but the chance of those two things happening is probably because she grew up in a secular society and isn't really following the Koran so closely, and actually it wouldn't be me who defines whether or not she is a good Muslim or not, but the majority of Muslims who would find her behaviour abhorrent.

Yes, Turkey, I mentioned before, was the most moderate Muslim majority country, is actually becoming closer to a dictatorship than ever - introducing religion along the way. Erdogan has sacked army officials, judges, teachers, journalists etc. The government there has built more than 17,000 new Mosques in the last fifteen years, he has lifted bans on the hibjab, nearly a million students now go to Islamic schools - although only about 60,000 had gone in 2002. This is a nice quote from Erdogan;

"The Mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets, and the faithful our soldiers"
 

or perhaps this one...

"The term 'moderate' Islam is ugly and offensive. There is no 'moderate' Islam. Islam is Islam"

 

 

 

[Alex DeLarge]

Cheer up you argumentative lot, there will be enough arguing at the Christmas dinner table later. 

[eFestivals]

On 12/24/2016 at 9:50 AM, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Hahaha, jeez. It's well documented, have you ever read a history book yourself? Look up Nizam Al Mulk.
The tolerance for an alternative opinion here is genuinely shocking. 

Glastonbury should be about leveled, balanced discussion, but so far you've told me to "fuck off" and now "piss off", without providing me with any statistical anaylsis of a non-problem within Muslim countries.

The freedoms and pleasures you enjoy at Glastonbury wouldn't be allowed in pretty much all Muslim countries. Especially the for women or homosexuals, yet you defend them because you like to take the moral high ground on everything, even if it contradicts your own values. Your naivety shows

The freedoms and pleasures I enjoy at Glastonbury aren't even allowed in THIS COUNTRY.  PMSL

You're not providing me with any evidence at all, apart from there's a book in the world you don't like.

You then associate all people with a strong attachment to that book as being identical in thought when their actions prove differently. UIf you want to talk evidence, let's talk about 2Bn Muslims and fuck all terrorism. They're not even as 'good' at it as the Irish.

But that book damns them, each and every one of them, but the bible damns no one. It must be because of the free halo you get with each copy you buy.

 

[eFestivals]

On 12/24/2016 at 10:00 AM, Cornelius_Fudge said:

I said world-wide terrorism. The rebels in Colombia don't have a billion people in the world to financially support them. You're comparing apples and oranges again.

and 'Islamic terrorists' don't hav4e a billion people supporting them either.

 

On 12/24/2016 at 10:00 AM, Cornelius_Fudge said:

When are people going to stop making this weird defense by bringing up the IRA as if I'm some how in favour of the IRA and not Islamic terror and radical thought.

The IRA were funded - OPENLY - by 'right thinking Americans'.

But that's nothing like what you're suggesting about Muslims, right?

On 12/24/2016 at 10:00 AM, Cornelius_Fudge said:

I've haven't said anything bigoted against people, just criticising their religion, and it's bewildering how any body here lives their life contorting what others with different opinions say.

If we're criticising religions, they're all a crock of shit. It's something only for the deluded's.

Having got past that part, whatever evils are demanded by religious scriptures - something just as present in the 'good' bible as any other book - that's not how their adherents choose to interpret them.

Your bigotry comes up when you solidly link people's adherence to that religion with terrorism, as tho they're the same thing.

Guilt by association is one for those driven by by fear and not fact.

On 12/24/2016 at 10:00 AM, Cornelius_Fudge said:

If there really is no connection to the Koran and their actions, like you say, then can you explain why so many honour killings, killings of homosexuals and stonings happen?

'Honour' killings are something which happens in many different cultures, including Christian culture. It's fuck all to do with any specific religion. You want facts? That's a fact.

Killings of homosexuals happens in many different cultures, including Christian culture. It's fuck all to do with any specific religion. You want facts? That's a fact.

Stonings happen in many different cultures, including Christian culture. It's fuck all to do with any specific religion. You want facts? That's a fact.

So yes, there's *REALLY* no connection to the Koran and those actions you detailed. 

Meanwhile, perfect-us only decided 5 years ago that homosexuality didn't make someone legally inferior. You want facts? That's a fact.

I guess Muslims are currently murdering your grannie?  

[eFestivals]

On 12/24/2016 at 10:08 AM, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Anyway, look, I don't see why a simple discussion needed to get so heated. I haven't said anything against people, but a religion, criticizing an ideology.

And then you say all people of that religion uniquely believe in and support terrorism, when the world proves that false.

And then you say all people of that religion should be treated with suspicion because of the actions of a small number of them.

[eFestivals]

On 12/24/2016 at 10:00 AM, Cornelius_Fudge said:

If there really is no connection to the Koran and their actions, like you say, then can you explain why so many honour killings, killings of homosexuals and stonings happen?

 

21 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Saying something happens in another country or religion, therefore these deaths and killings are okay and therefore not up for criticism, seems an odd way to explain something,

Two sets of words of yours.

The first set tries to claim particular actions as the direct result of what's written in a book.

The 2nd acknowledges those particular actions happening when there's no connection to that book.

So which is the right one? Do these things happen because of that book, or do these things happen because of something else?

The facts show how it is.

The facts show that you know the facts but say something else.

Edited December 26, 2016 by eFestivals

[Mr.Tease]

22 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

 

As for the women you've talked about 'in any large workplace in the UK' - again something anecdotal and completely unproven - if I did meet a woman and she "identified" as Muslim, that means precisely zilch for your argument. She might drink, she might have had sex outside of marriage, but the chance of those two things happening is probably because she grew up in a secular society and isn't really following the Koran so closely, and actually it wouldn't be me who defines whether or not she is a good Muslim or not, but the majority of Muslims who would find her behaviour abhorrent.

Yes, Turkey, I mentioned before, was the most moderate Muslim majority country, is actually becoming closer to a dictatorship than ever - introducing religion along the way. Erdogan has sacked army officials, judges, teachers, journalists etc. The government there has built more than 17,000 new Mosques in the last fifteen years, he has lifted bans on the hibjab, nearly a million students now go to Islamic schools - although only about 60,000 had gone in 2002. This is a nice quote from Erdogan;

"The Mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets, and the faithful our soldiers"
 

or perhaps this one...

"The term 'moderate' Islam is ugly and offensive. There is no 'moderate' Islam. Islam is Islam"

 

 

 

I think you've completely missed his point, but now that you've mentioned it, you do realise that people have access to alcohol and sex outside of marriage in muslim countries don't you? (same as people have access to drugs here). Oh no, that's right you don't, because you don't actually know anyone from a muslim background  as you're still imagining what they must all be like and all believe in. It's like me living the other side of the world, reading a bible, and using it to decide what you must be like and that our 'civilisations' are completely incompatible and that you're a savage.

In every society (Christian, muslim, whatever), you'll find religious zealots, hypocrites, bullshitters, atheists, secret rebels, half-arse believers, war-mongers, murderers, egalitarians, bigots, misogynists, homophobes, LGBT, etc etc. 

And do you really think Erdogan has suddenly had a religious conversion? Or is he just using all that shit to tighten his hold on power?

[Cornelius_Fudge]

6 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

I think you've completely missed his point, but now that you've mentioned it, you do realise that people have access to alcohol and sex outside of marriage in muslim countries don't you? (same as people have access to drugs here). Oh no, that's right you don't, because you don't actually know anyone from a muslim background  as you're still imagining what they must all be like and all believe in. It's like me living the other side of the world, reading a bible, and using it to decide what you must be like and that our 'civilisations' are completely incompatible and that you're a savage.

In every society (Christian, muslim, whatever), you'll find religious zealots, hypocrites, bullshitters, atheists, secret rebels, half-arse believers, war-mongers, murderers, egalitarians, bigots, misogynists, homophobes, LGBT, etc etc. 

And do you really think Erdogan has suddenly had a religious conversion? Or is he just using all that shit to tighten his hold on power?

Yes, he's using in quite easily to wield power and authority, much like in other religiously Islamic countries. Not exactly easy to spot the connection there.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

7 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

Two sets of words of yours.

The first set tries to claim particular actions as the direct result of what's written in a book.

The 2nd acknowledges those particular actions happening when there's no connection to that book.

So which is the right one? Do these things happen because of that book, or do these things happen because of something else?

The facts show how it is.

The facts show that you know the facts but say something else.

I think you've changed the meaning of my words.

The first, I asked you to explain why the majority of Muslim countries/religious leaders/people are so willing to act the Koran out and believe in the 'word for word authority of God', so to say.

The second, I was criticising your choice of logic. For arguments sake, let's say there are 100 million Muslims who support honour killings across Iran, Turkey, the Kurdish community and Iraq. Only 1% (or 100,000) act out an honour killing because they're the only ones righteous/divine enough or have reason to do so, that doesn't ignore the fact they have the support of the other 99%. Or alternatively, it doesn't seem logical, that just because you can find a few hundred examples of honour killing in another religion, it somehow absolves Islam as being okay, as if I were only criticizing Islam or singling out Islam for no reason, when clearly, there is enough data in the last fifteen years to prove otherwise.

Also, still up to now, I'm the only one who has produced any facts. You claim there is no radicalism, because otherwise there would be a billion lorries being driven in to crowds every day. That's a fallacious argument. If you want to look at radicalism, look at the human rights watch website, the Pew Research Center, the number of people who support honour killings, who support marital rape, who support the beating of women, the Morrocan TV channel who showed women how they can cover up their bruises with makeup.

The same connection applies. Where do the, pretty up always, men get their ideas that this is okay?

The IRA argument is getting a bit tiring now, but it's very much a social conflict. Very few are yelled out "God is Great" when they blew people up, but nonetheless, the hate there is also awful and me, by being critical of Islam, doesn't mean I'm not critical of Christianity either or any other social violence. Why do people keep mentioning such a simple argument... Also, if you step back and look at the numbers, the IRA and the Troubles and the overall radical thought coming from Ireland and the North of Ireland, there's not a lot in comparison. It's all about perspective and being real with the statistics, not just anecdotal or moral opinion.