Thoughts go out to those in Berlin

[guypjfreak]

Old son I watch all the news and some of the points that you make are quite solid but some are just stupid... To compare a couple of geezers who were lazy c**ts who didn't do there job... I agree with horrible circumstances but It wasn't like it was planed  to a 24 year old nutter who drives an artic into a crowd of people after first killing the driver all of which was planned is in the real world just stupid.. You old son might as well say that some of what the IRA done was OK cos of what happened years ago or that it's OK for black people to keep white people as slaves because of what people did 100 odd years ago...... Or that isis is OK to do this cos of the crusades 10000s years ago 

I agree some of the news that goes out some people don't see but that doesn't take away the fact that there are a group of people who are out to kill anyone in the name of some religious following even people that follow the same religion. They are murders end of. Even there families have disowned the bloke who did this. But it shows that there are many more of the same elk cos even with a huge reward his friends most of whom got to Germany as refugees will not give him up and we will probably see some of them doing something similar imo... 

All I ask old son is for YOU to open YOUR eyes the same way that you ask people to open there's............ G

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, guypjfreak said:

Or that isis is OK to do this cos of the crusades 10000s years ago 

(10,000 years ago, the crusades? :P)

There's much we can learn from history, such as the troubles a society going thru 'the enlightenment' goes thru.

Are you suggesting that all Muslims should be demonised because we in the west can't get our heads around some other people - a tiny number - going thru the process we had to go thru before we became the glorious wonderful caring people that we are today, selling the bombs to kill those people and destroying their societies with war and bombs?

Here's a thought. How's about we recognise our own flaws and accept that others have them too?

Rather than believing ourselves as perfect, not allowing others the same as we did ourselves, while fulfilling the actions that ISIS is desperate to us to be doing.

 

[Mr.Tease]

9 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

Although there's many places on the Internet where a simple question of whether Angela Merkel is partly responsible for the atrocity that happened in Germany earlier this week can descend into an argument about race, I wouldn't have expected this to be one of them.

Those who mentioned the skin colour of the refugees really ought to be ashamed of themselves and maybe question their own attitude to race and whether they are fit to post on any forum - let alone a Glastonbury forum. Surely, the question is valid regardless of the colour of a persons skin.

It seems to me that the general consensus of this thread is that the undoubted need of the refugees outweighs the requirement of the Government to keep the existing population safe. Whilst I accept that only a tiny proportion pose a possible threat to the existing population, I still feel there may be a valid argument that Angela Merkel has failed in her responsibility (while also completely understanding the reasons why she made the decision she did). I read this evening (from unsubstantiated sources) that Germany is tracking over 5000 potential terrorists - many of whom have entered the country as refugees. If true, is this a price worth paying? If you think it is, would you be prepared to make that argument to the relatives of the people who were killed or injured in this weeks atrocity?       

This weeks tragedy has nothing to to do with Syrian refugees (the suspect was Tunisian ND he was vetted by security AND was deemed a threat), neither was Nice (French national via Tunisia, so how does it show Merkel is responsible?

[Mr.Tease]

9 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Fucking hell. I've not said anything remotely like what you're making out. 

I'll say it again, altho I'm not sure if it'll sink in this time, but I've not said all Muslims are the same.

You could find me the evidence to support your claim that western and middle eastern societies have a comparable rape, gay hate crime, or apostasy death rate like you did earlier perhaps? 

Yes, things are not all rosy and lovely in the UK or Germany, but when two opposing cultures collide, you're seeing what happens.

Thats another fallacy - that only people who have first hand experience of something are allowed to speak or know what it feels like. I don't need to be raped or be thrown off of a building just because of my sexuality, to know that it would be horrible. 

You're history books will tell you that slavery was also heavily dealt with by the middle east, but to say the Christian West invented all slavery is just incorrect. Which country used their power to stop the slave trade though? Also, all the things you mention happened in Africa and Asia as well, Japanese colonialism, African warlords, mass slaughters. To think only Europe has done those bad things is false. 

All the governments in the middle east have been put in place by Western nations? Huh? I suppose you think the US and France etc gets to choose all their laws and wrote the Hadith as well? 

And I don't know anything about your family and haven't mentioned them, so again, what!? But yes I do know Muslims, but they're British born and drink and have girlfriends out of marriage, something they realise they couldn't do in more orthodox countries. 

Thats the thing about generalising about people based on their religion- you make assumptions about people based on their religion. My family live in a muslim country- we get on great, this rubbish that people spout about colliding cultures is usual spouted by people who don't actually know anyone of the other culture and so just imagine what they must be like. Its not the culture thats the problem, its the bigotry each side has.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

8 hours ago, Scruffylovemonster said:

Wow!

 

If a pig's born in a stable it's still a pig int it, Cornelius? 

Amaright?!

 

Never been any Catholic or protestant terrorists anywhere. Only bombings we've ever known in Britain have been by Muslims. 

Classic fallacy. 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

8 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Thats the thing about generalising about people based on their religion- you make assumptions about people based on their religion. My family live in a muslim country- we get on great, this rubbish that people spout about colliding cultures is usual spouted by people who don't actually know anyone of the other culture and so just imagine what they must be like. Its not the culture thats the problem, its the bigotry each side has.

That's the thing when people only use anecdotal evidence for their world view. 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

But you have said that the right reaction to a minor but terrible problem is to treat all Muslims with suspicion.

Care to explain to me how you're not labelling *all* Muslims a problem, again?

 

If you think *radical* Islam is a small thing then that's pretty strange statement.

Anyone can view the official number of groups on Wikipedia, then we should wonder how they become financed, who supports them secretly etc. 

I thought I'd clarified this many posts before by saying we first have to admit there's a serious problem. Nothing gets solved by just burying our heads in the sand and finding tiny examples of other people carrying out terrorism in Europe by other groups to prove that all people are the same. I've never said other groups don't cause terrorism, but to find one or two examples against the multiple world wide examples of Islamic terrorism is just bad maths. The ratio is clearly heavier on one side. 

I'm sure there are some oppressed academics, oppresed atheists, oppressed women and oppressed homosexuals who want refuge, but unfortunately some people can't see the wood from the trees, or clearly can't even accept there's a problem. 

With your logic, if there were 5,000 cases of paedos in the Catholic Church, then the Vatican can just say, "yeah but there was a man in Austria who raped a kid therefore there's no probkem", it'd be a pretty laughable statement. 

 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

You might have seen on the news yesterday that 4 people died in a lorry crash in the UK, because 2 white british people didn't give a shit about killing other brits. Are you ignoring the extent of the white british problem?

How about damning all Catholics because of (what was essentially) the religious war in Ireland?

The training manuals of ISIS and others have been seen, and your reaction is precisely what they want. You might as well be planting their bombs for them.

And then there's your cultural imperialism, that has you blind and feeling (but not being) superior to so very much.

Wake the fuck up, please.

You're seriously comparing someone who crashed a lorry because he was sending a a text on Facebook, to a man who killed twelve because he believed he was doing God's work? 

I think you're the one who needs to wake the fuck up. That's an outrageous Islamic apologist statement. 

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

If you think *radical* Islam is a small thing then that's pretty strange statement.

in it's effect onto western europe it is.

It's effect is about the same as a couple of white british geezers running a haulage firm and making trips to Bath.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

You're seriously comparing someone who crashed a lorry because he was sending a a text on Facebook, to a man who killed twelve because he believed he was doing God's work? 

Nope, i'm seriously comparing a haulage company boss who chose to not maintain his trucks.

They both killed people because of their other wants.

 

2 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

I think you're the one who needs to wake the fuck up. That's an outrageous Islamic apologist statement. 

I'm apologising for nothing at all. :rolleyes:

I'm pointing out the moral equivalence AND the equivalence in FACT, and pointing out your disparate response to each.

The white man gets the free pass - you say it can't be compared despite deliberate death by truck being the same - but all Muslims should be treated as suspicious.

[Gnomicide]

Suspect shot dead.

[The Nal]

49 minutes ago, Gnomicide said:

Suspect shot dead.

Still amazes me that Germany are giving asylum to violent criminals who have recently been released from prison and deported from a neighbouring country. 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Nope, i'm seriously comparing a haulage company boss who chose to not maintain his trucks.

They both killed people because of their other wants.

 

I'm apologising for nothing at all.

I'm pointing out the moral equivalence AND the equivalence in FACT, and pointing out your disparate response to each.

The white man gets the free pass - you say it can't be compared despite deliberate death by truck being the same - but all Muslims should be treated as suspicious.

I'm not giving an ideology that quite clearly tells people to kill a free pass.

A haulage company who didn't check the breaks or whatever isn't preaching to everyone to kill people by truck. The two are completely different

Also, not saying all Muslims. You're just trying to do to me, what the Left media did to Trump. Typical

Edited December 23, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

I'm not giving an ideology that quite clearly tells people to kill a free pass.

Would that be why Berlin-matey's brother has been on TV telling him to give himself up, and his mother has been on TV saying that the family now disown him because of his dreadful act?

The facts are a bit inconvenient for the myth you're spreading.

 

Quote

A haulage company who didn't check the breaks or whatever isn't preaching to everyone to kill people by truck. The two are completely different

The both killed people in the pursuit of something else. 

Both of that 'something else' is an ideology they're pursuing.

 

Quote

Also, not saying all Muslims. You're just trying to do to me, what the Left media did to Trump. Typical

If it's not 'all Muslims', why have you been advocating a response onto all Muslims?

 

Edited December 23, 2016 by eFestivals

[Cornelius_Fudge]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Would that be why Berlin-matey's brother has been on TV telling him to give himself up, and his mother has been on TV saying that the family now disown him because of his dreadful act?

The facts are a bit inconvenient for the myth you're spreading.

 

The both killed people in the pursuit of something else. 

Both of that 'something else' is an ideology they're pursuing.

 

If it's not 'all Muslims', why have you been advocating a response onto all Muslims?

 

So, now all people need to do is to get their mum and dad on TV to prove there's no connection? OMG. Some of your excuses are hilarious. I'll try and remember when my brother gets charged for mass murder to say either or both of the following:

"There are murders/rapes by other people in other countries, so you can't be mad at him or try and find any connections to any ideology that he and others believe in"

and/or

"I'm his brother and we disown him as a family, therefore any further investigation in to why he's done it or what connects him with several other killers is irrelevant".

Yeah the lorry driver manager was pursuing a profit and he made a mistake and they should pay the price for that act, but there's no large community of lorry driver managers telling every one of their employees to save money by killing people. It's a ridiculous comparison and makes about as much sense as comparing my cinnamon apple pie with the clementines hanging from my Christmas tree.

The start of this discussion was about immigrants/refugees who have come in to Europe. Why are we not allowed to challenge or criticise them if they hold values that are at odds with ours? Why should we be so shy about expressing that liberal Europe is a place of sex, drugs, rock and roll, equality of sexes, rights for LGBT people etc? Why defend the ideology that promotes the opposite of that? I know it's politically correct and morally righteous, but I just don't get it.

[guypjfreak]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

(10,000 years ago, the crusades? :P)

There's much we can learn from history, such as the troubles a society going thru 'the enlightenment' goes thru.

Are you suggesting that all Muslims should be demonised because we in the west can't get our heads around some other people - a tiny number - going thru the process we had to go thru before we became the glorious wonderful caring people that we are today, selling the bombs to kill those people and destroying their societies with war and bombs?

Here's a thought. How's about we recognise our own flaws and accept that others have them too?

Rather than believing ourselves as perfect, not allowing others the same as we did ourselves, while fulfilling the actions that ISIS is desperate to us to be doing.

 

Not once did I mention Muslims old son not once... 1000 year's well its close lol the point being we can't always put blame on the past we live in the now. I didn't want to this thread to be about fucking politics and shit I was merely expressing a thought to those that got KILLED... You old son I've noticed love to turn shit like this into a way to express how WE should all see thing's..

Some shit you yak on about is right ie that we play to there tune ect but there's other shit you spout that is just that shit... Lol

Lets just agree that we we can ALL feel bad about every fucker that dies.. How's that......... Apart from my mum and that my argumentative friend is something even you cant argue with.. Lol

Peace and love even over Xmas which as we all know is the route of all evil but good fun with a drink and for the kids............. Even tho as you might say old son there are thousands of kids that don't have a great Xmas well the world isn't perfect so please do not bring that up.. G

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

So, now all people need to do is to get their mum and dad on TV to prove there's no connection? OMG.

Oh FFS.

You say Islamic terrorists have a free pass for what they do.

I present you with evidence that they very definitely don't, not even from those closest to them.

You reject that evidence to instead go with what you've invented based on no facts at all.

Who is giving out the free passes Mr Fudge? 

Some facts would be nice to back up what you've said, to show it's not merely your self-invented prejudices.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, guypjfreak said:

Not once did I mention Muslims old son not once... 1000 year's well its close lol

But you did mention crusades. Against Muslims.

4 minutes ago, guypjfreak said:

I didn't want to this thread to be about fucking politics and shit I was merely expressing a thought to those that got KILLED... You old son I've noticed love to turn shit like this into a way to express how WE should all see thing's..

Like you've just felt the need to do?

We all see things a bit differently. There's no harm in those being expressed. There is harm in suggesting that people should shut up with things that challenge their thinking.

If I wanted to tell everyone how they should see things I'd have my say and censor anything disagreeable, and your words right there are an attempt to tell me I'm not allowed a say. Get the fuck over yourself.

8 minutes ago, guypjfreak said:

Lets just agree that we we can ALL feel bad about every fucker that dies.

If we could all manage that, it would be fantastic.

Instead of some people wanting to virtue signal or alternatively not feeling bad but feeling good at the opportunity to demonise by association.

[russycarps]

11 minutes ago, guypjfreak said:

Not once did I mention Muslims old son not once... 1000 year's well its close lol the point being we can't always put blame on the past we live in the now. I didn't want to this thread to be about fucking politics and shit I was merely expressing a thought to those that got KILLED... You old son I've noticed love to turn shit like this into a way to express how WE should all see thing's..

Some shit you yak on about is right ie that we play to there tune ect but there's other shit you spout that is just that shit... Lol

Lets just agree that we we can ALL feel bad about every fucker that dies.. How's that......... Apart from my mum and that my argumentative friend is something even you cant argue with.. Lol

Peace and love even over Xmas which as we all know is the route of all evil but good fun with a drink and for the kids............. Even tho as you might say old son there are thousands of kids that don't have a great Xmas well the world isn't perfect so please do not bring that up.. G

The crusades were defensive wars anyway.....anders breivik said so.

 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

18 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Oh FFS.

You say Islamic terrorists have a free pass for what they do.

I present you with evidence that they very definitely don't, not even from those closest to them.

You reject that evidence to instead go with what you've invented based on no facts at all.

Who is giving out the free passes Mr Fudge? 

Some facts would be nice to back up what you've said, to show it's not merely your self-invented prejudices.

So, because his mum gets on the TV and says he's disowned, that's all people need to do to stop rational thought? My word. What a world we could live in if we just need to get our mums to write us a letter to absolve us from any engagement in a radical ideology. All the Jihadists and white terrorists like the man who murdered Jo Cox just need to get their mam on the TV. Classic.

You're giving out the free passes. Double fold if you think there's no connection. You certainly wouldn't make a good detective. There's evidence in the news of another foiled plot from two in Germany who are originally from Kosovo. I suppose they just need to get their dads on the blower and then all connections with radical Islam will just melt away in to the ether?

What evidence would you like? The data I've already shown you from the GErman government itself? Or the human rights problems on the website www.hrw.org? Or the lists of radical groups who fight in the name of Allah?

That evidence is all better than "His mum was on TV"

 

Edited December 23, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge

[Cornelius_Fudge]

2 minutes ago, russycarps said:

The crusades were defensive wars anyway.....anders breivik said so.

 

While they were to stop Turkish expansion, they were also to claim holy lands. So it's a half truth. But let's be honest, neither religion comes out of the Crusades with any glory.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

You're giving out the free passes. Double fold if you think there's no connection.

there's no connection between that terrorist's view of what Islam says and the vast majority of Muslims.

Which is why the problem is, in the scheme of things, a very minor problem - while of course being devastating to those who are a victim (tho no more devastating than the same via, say, a car crash).

But anyway, you said their ideology hands out free passes. 

The only ideology doing that is the ideology of acceptable violence, an ideology this country buys into no less than any 'Islamic terrorist'.

Outside of that, care to tell me how is handing out the free passes, without the diversionary bullshit answer this time?

[russycarps]

3 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

While they were to stop Turkish expansion, they were also to claim holy lands. So it's a half truth. But let's be honest, neither religion comes out of the Crusades with any glory.

The goal was to capture the holy sepulcher. That's it.

 

[rubenz]

Suspect shot dead in a random police stop within 48 hours having left his I.D in the truck. No interrogation, no trial, no proof. I'm not really a conspiracy theorist but you could have guessed that outcome pretty easily.

[guypjfreak]

Well he's dead now.. And I'm SO sorry for him... Not but I do feel for his family that will now and forever be tarred by his actions... 

Can we go back normal now.......................................... Argumentative sods