Are we In or Out?

[DeanoL]

16 minutes ago, Thevorpalblade said:

I want longer waiting times at hospitals.

So count me..... IN

I want lower wages.

So count me.....  IN

I want higher house prices through higher demand.

So count me.....   IN

I want higher council taxes

So count me......  IN

Lets get the bunting out and welcome the forthcoming benefit claimants of Turkey, Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro and Albania.

So count me....  IN

Remind me again why all these Turkish people will want to come somewhere with soaring house prices, a shit health service, low wages and high council taxes, when they could just go to France instead?

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

Just now, DeanoL said:

Remind me again why all these Turkish people will want to come somewhere with soaring house prices, a shit health service, low wages and high council taxes, when they could just go to France instead?

Or Germany

[wobble]

31 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

so you're wanting a 2nd vote, to also vote yourself out of the UK with it's hereditary monarch and it's appointed & hereditary 'lords' plus clerics (just like Iran) in its house of lords?

In comparison, the EU is more democratic than the UK.

Yes we can. It's the member govts who define the EU's purpose, and all of those member govts are voted for.

The UK govt gets 97%* of its wants fulfilled by the EU.
(* that's the average of the last 12 years).

And it's democracy and not no-democracy that stops the other 3% being fulfilled.

 

 

Big thing to remember is the elected Euro MP’s can only debate what the un- elected head of the euro parliament wants to debate.

 

In other words this unelected committee decide what gets debated in the Euro parliament, not our elected Euro MP’s. They also decide what new laws are dished out; our Euro MP’s can only debate.

 

This is hardly a democratic system.

[eFestivals]

18 minutes ago, Thevorpalblade said:

I want longer waiting times at hospitals.

So count me..... IN

I want lower wages.

So count me.....  IN

Hospitals are not controlled by the EU.

What defines the waiting times at hospitals is the resources made available to deal with demand. If our govt - with bthye support of ';the people' who voted for that govt - thinks they've got enough resources they won't get more.

It's fuck all to do with the numbers creating the demand, and everything to do with how much 'the people' wish to put towards satifiying demand.

If 'the people's views are consistent, we'll reduce demand and also reduce resources, making fuck all difference.

 

18 minutes ago, Thevorpalblade said:

I want higher house prices through higher demand.

So count me.....   IN

Housing is not controlled by the EU.

Everything about housing including prices is controlled by the UK govt via the amount of land they release for housing.

Demand is related to supply.

Every govt for at least 40 years - so from long before any EU immigration effect - has decided to under-supply housing to meet needs. THAT's what put prices up.

 

18 minutes ago, Thevorpalblade said:

I want higher council taxes

So count me......  IN

Council tax isn't set by the EU.

Council tax has been around static while immigration hasn't been. There's no relationship.

 

18 minutes ago, Thevorpalblade said:

Lets get the bunting out and welcome the forthcoming benefit claimants of Turkey, Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro and Albania.

So count me....  IN

Turkey first applied for the EU over 50 years ago.

Turkey has been within the accession process for 30 years. It's further away from meeting the criteria now than it was those 30 years ago.

But what scares you about these anyway? Is it because you feel you have a birthright to the UK's riches, just like a tory?

If you believe that all humans have equal worth, there's nothing to fear from sharing our wealth. It's only if you think "it's mine" (despite having nothing to do with its creation, that was slavery) that you'd worry, where you believe you have a right to more than others by default.

[hfuhruhurr]

The democracy thing makes me laugh out loud.

Since when did the UK gov ever do what we wanted? Most of the time they don't even follow their manifesto. So why is democracy so high up people's agendas? And where do you want democracy - in the World, in Europe, in UK, in local government, in your house? The value system people have that it isn't democratic unless we have a majority is barking and laughable.

But I guess those people who are out don't consider themselves to be part of Europe anyway, so there's absolutely no convincing them on this point.

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, wobble said:

Big thing to remember is the elected Euro MP’s can only debate what the un- elected head of the euro parliament wants to debate.

 

In other words this unelected committee decide what gets debated in the Euro parliament, not our elected Euro MP’s. They also decide what new laws are dished out; our Euro MP’s can only debate.

 

This is hardly a democratic system.

No, it's just a different democratic system.

In the UK, it's not* parliament that proposes what's debated, but the govt - so that's fuck all different to the EU, ultimately.
(* there are occasional exceptions, I know - but they mean just about fuck all without govt support)

Does the UK govt just like 'the EU govt' decide which new laws are dished out? Why, yes it does.

FFS.

[p.pete]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

If you believe that all humans have equal worth, there's nothing to fear from sharing our wealth. It's only if you think "it's mine" (despite having nothing to do with its creation, that was slavery) that you'd worry, where you believe you have a right to more than others by default.

Not that the wealth ever gets shared around - maybe tinfoil hat territory but in terms of reclaiming the trillions (quadrillions, whatever) in avoided tax I think that international cooperation is required.  That seems far more likely within the EU. 

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, p.pete said:

Not that the wealth ever gets shared around - maybe tinfoil hat territory but in terms of reclaiming the trillions (quadrillions, whatever) in avoided tax I think that international cooperation is required.  That seems far more likely within the EU. 

Sorry, but you've gone fishing and got yourself a red herring.

There is money, and then there's resources. Money is useless without a resource to spend it on.

All of the money in the world could be abolished tomorrow so there's no more 'rich people' and no 'avoided tax' - and yet the world would be no richer or poorer. The wealth society has exists *ONLY* within resources.

The only thing to be better managed for a more-perfect society is the distribution &/or access to resources. Forget about money, forget about 'rich'.

A 'rich' man might own a factory, but what is important is the factory that creates 'things' - wealth - that we might access, and not his money. Changing the ownership of the factory makes fuck all difference to any of the important parts.

[p.pete]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Sorry, but you've gone fishing and got yourself a red herring.

There is money, and then there's resources. Money is useless without a resource to spend it on.

All of the money in the world could be abolished tomorrow so there's no more 'rich people' and no 'avoided tax' - and yet the world would be no richer or poorer. The wealth society has exists *ONLY* within resources.

The only thing to be better managed for a more-perfect society is the distribution &/or access to resources. Forget about money, forget about 'rich'.

A 'rich' man might own a factory, but what is important is the factory that creates 'things' - wealth - that we might access, and not his money. Changing the ownership of the factory makes fuck all difference to any of the important parts.

Money can be used in exchange for goods and services?

[p.pete]

23 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

If you believe that all humans have equal worth, there's nothing to fear from sharing our wealth. It's only if you think "it's mine" (despite having nothing to do with its creation, that was slavery) that you'd worry, where you believe you have a right to more than others by default.

Not that the resources ever get shared around - maybe tinfoil hat territory but in terms of reclaiming the trillions (quadrillions, whatever) in avoided "resource sharing" I think that international cooperation is required.  That seems far more likely within the EU. 

Fixed?

Edited June 7, 2016 by p.pete

[paulmuchmore]

I really don't get the claims of fearmongering on the remain side.

People say they want the facts, they're given them, a lot of them from independent bodies. But apparently pointing these out counts as a campaign of fear.

it's the leave side that are making up and misrepresenting facts. Yet this is completely ignored by many. Probably because all that matters to them is that "80 million Turks" are supposedly coming to take over our country.

[wobble]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

No, it's just a different democratic system.

In the UK, it's not* parliament that proposes what's debated, but the govt - so that's fuck all different to the EU, ultimately.
(* there are occasional exceptions, I know - but they mean just about fuck all without govt support)

Does the UK govt just like 'the EU govt' decide which new laws are dished out? Why, yes it does.

FFS.

Even if what you say is true (it's not) we can still vote OUT our Government, we can't vote out the commission, the ones who decide what out Euro MP can debate about.

 

Jeremy Paxman explained all this in his programme for the BBC last week.

Still doesn't sound very democratic.

 

BTW, a little less of the FFS and pulling face. Just trying to debate. If that's the way you behave in a face to face debate I would imagine you've been stuck on your arse a few times in your life.

 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, p.pete said:

Money can be used in exchange for goods and services?

only if there's the goods and services to exchange it for.

There's very definitely not a surplus of resources, unless you can show me the docksides stacked with goods with nowhere to go.

Meanwhile, from your words, you've talked about a money surplus....

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

the trillions (quadrillions, whatever)

If there's a surplus of money but no surplus of goods, something somewhere has gone badly wrong.

Now, I'm not trying to pretend that money doesn't matter at all, of course it does. It has its place in the4 system tat makes it part of the system. ... and yet .....

All of the money could be abolished and we still have all of the same resources. That's worth thinking about. A Lot!

Similarly, you can take ownership of some of the resources of a rich man and (if you started poor) have better distribution of wealth - and yet nothing of society is richer. It's made no difference at all to anyone's means-to-live, it's just transferred who holds something which isn't the means to live.

Ownership is a red herring. It's what's done with what it owned - by anyone - is what counts.

[SwedgeAntilles]

1 hour ago, paulmuchmore said:

I really don't get the claims of fearmongering on the remain side.

People say they want the facts, they're given them, a lot of them from independent bodies. But apparently pointing these out counts as a campaign of fear.

it's the leave side that are making up and misrepresenting facts. Yet this is completely ignored by many. Probably because all that matters to them is that "80 million Turks" are supposedly coming to take over our country.

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, p.pete said:

Not that the resources ever get shared around - maybe tinfoil hat territory but in terms of reclaiming the trillions (quadrillions, whatever) in avoided "resource sharing" I think that international cooperation is required.  That seems far more likely within the EU. 

Fixed?

we can take the money off 'the rich' and share it around, which gives the people with (now) more money more-equal access to resources.

But it doesn't increase anything of the actual resources that are available to be accessed. It doesn't make the world richer.

And, if the idea is that resources should be equal to all, check your privileges and realise you're going to be poorer no matter how poor you might already be.... unless you're perhaps posting from the developing world as a native of that world?

[clarkete]

17 minutes ago, wobble said:

Even if what you say is true (it's not) we can still vote OUT our Government, we can't vote out the commission, the ones who decide what out Euro MP can debate about.

 

How is that any different to the cabinet?

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, wobble said:

Even if what you say is true (it's not)

then please be intelligent enough to tell me what was factually wrong with what I've said, that will prove your case that the EU is more abhorently undemocratic than the UK and make your claims true.

When you say it's wrong but don't and won't say why, it merely screams at me that you're telling porkie pies.

17 minutes ago, wobble said:

we can't vote out the commission

We can't vote out the UK's civil service either.

The commission follows the instructions of the democratically-elected European Council (once known as the council of ministers), exactly the same as the UK civil service follows the instructions of parliament.

 

20 minutes ago, wobble said:

 

BTW, a little less of the FFS and pulling face. Just trying to debate. If that's the way you behave in a face to face debate I would imagine you've been stuck on your arse a few times in your life.

 

Right, so what you're saying is that you'#e allowed to have disparaging opinions about a particular thing - the EU - but no one is allowed disparaging opinions on your opinions...?

Why the double-standards if you're "just trying to debate"?

 

[cazzatron]

I get an interesting perspective as I work for a Singaporean company. After asking me, they are quite shocked that I would want to remain, to the level of "why on earth would you want to do that!!!!"...

Singapore is extremely proud of its independence mind you, but they are still part of the ASEAN group of countries - which also gets major investment from the EU.

Anyway, slightly off topic.

I voted in

[Keithy]

Voted remain a few weeks ago. Have always had a pro-EU view although did think about leaving. It bothers me greatly that a large institution like the EU can allow a shanty town to exist in northern France in 2016....that the institution is too big and too slow to react quickly to an issue like the migrant crisis....but then only an institution as big as the EU can ultimately solve that problem.... The leave campaign have offered nothing. No detailed economic plan, no answers to the 'So what would you do about immigration? They're still going to come...", etc. But fundamentally for me it came down to my beliefs about what direction do I want Britain to go, what's right for future generations not what might make me richer or poorer in the short term. And I always came back to remain.

And oddly enough, a speech from Nadya Tolokonnikova (Pussy Riot) last year became my 'go to' point.... it had a couple of lines that really struck home for me:

Quote

Our governments still believe in the power of borders ......We have to step away from this 19th century logic and understand how to live in the 21st century — without borders. The 21st century is the century of ideas, not the century of locked borders, razor wires, refugee camps and huge armies.

And what is globalization in the good sense, if we really are living in a global world? It is the free movement of people, along with goods and ideas.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nadia-tolokonnikova/i-live-without-borders_b_8357088.html

[Cammers]

Had R1 on in the car this morning and heard a snippet of a very clever lady being asked about whether she will vote or not.

Her response?

"No because it's not like it's going to make a difference, is it?"

.....

*apply palm to forehead*

[p.pete]

2 minutes ago, Cammers said:

Had R1 on in the car this morning and heard a snippet of a very clever lady being asked about whether she will vote or not.

Her response?

"No because it's not like it's going to make a difference, is it?"

.....

*apply palm to forehead*

Well done R1 - uncontested comment I assume

[GlastoSimon]

4 minutes ago, Cammers said:

Had R1 on in the car this morning and heard a snippet of a very clever lady being asked about whether she will vote or not.

Her response?

"No because it's not like it's going to make a difference, is it?"

.....

*apply palm to forehead*

I bet the Remain camp are pleased with that, trying to get youngsters to vote on deadline for registration! 

[wobble]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

then please be intelligent enough to tell me what was factually wrong with what I've said, that will prove your case that the EU is more abhorently undemocratic than the UK and make your claims true.

When you say it's wrong but don't and won't say why, it merely screams at me that you're telling porkie pies.

We can't vote out the UK's civil service either.

The commission follows the instructions of the democratically-elected European Council (once known as the council of ministers), exactly the same as the UK civil service follows the instructions of parliament.

 

 

Right, so what you're saying is that you'#e allowed to have disparaging opinions about a particular thing - the EU - but no one is allowed disparaging opinions on your opinions...?

Why the double-standards if you're "just trying to debate"?

 

Watch the Paxman show, it may explain it better than i can.

We can all have different opions, but when one starts acting the twat with FFS and laughing face(something you have previous for)they need pulling.

Like I said before I reckon you've been stuck on your arse a few times.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, wobble said:

Watch the Paxman show, it may explain it better than i can.

We can all have different opions, but when one starts acting the twat with FFS and laughing face(something you have previous for)they need pulling.

Like I said before I reckon you've been stuck on your arse a few times.

So anyway, you're all for distractions from the discussion and not for facts. I've got that, even if you can't get that I'm amused (not necessarily in a flattering way) by some of what you've said. But I'll try again.

You called me wrong, but you seem shy of saying how. The bit below was what you said was " true (it's not) ", if you need reminding.

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

No, it's just a different democratic system.

In the UK, it's not* parliament that proposes what's debated, but the govt - so that's fuck all different to the EU, ultimately.
(* there are occasional exceptions, I know - but they mean just about fuck all without govt support)

Does the UK govt just like 'the EU govt' decide which new laws are dished out? Why, yes it does.

FFS.

[shuttlep]

The EU has brought in many good labor laws, regarding pay and holidays and so on.

 

lets face it. if we leave Europe , would you trust the conservatives to carry on bringing in laws that look after the little man?