The Dirty Independence Question

[Neil]

34 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Time to lock this thread.  Its over :😜 

i see trump has been ranting how scotland will be better off without sturgeon, trump will be, perhaps he'll get his mate the sex offender back in charge.

[steviewevie]

independence day has been delayed for 5 years.

And I like Murray, and to say he was a loser is kind of dumb but there's so much dumb shit said on here what you going to do.

And I'm remainer mcremain and there's all this bregret about, but there's shit going on everywhere, and the economy will recover a bit...and if scotland left the UK I'm sure in the long run they'd be ok.

Meanwhile...just go for devo max.

[pink_triangle]

On 2/15/2023 at 3:36 PM, pink_triangle said:

If you can see how Sturgeon got tied up in knots over the trans issue, imagine what would happen to Forbes. I wouldn’t think she can fob off issues related to abortion, gay marriage and trans issues in a leadership contest. I think it will end up being Swinney

Well that prediction went as well as my usual ones. Knowing how bad my predictions are can I say it definitely won’t be Forbes, the SNP definitely won’t pick someone who can’t say it’s great that 2 men can marry each other, or can get completely behind a woman’s right to choose!

[Neil]

4 hours ago, steviewevie said:

independence day has been delayed for 5 years.

And I like Murray, and to say he was a loser is kind of dumb but there's so much dumb shit said on here what you going to do.

And I'm remainer mcremain and there's all this bregret about, but there's shit going on everywhere, and the economy will recover a bit...and if scotland left the UK I'm sure in the long run they'd be ok.

Meanwhile...just go for devo max.

They'd be ok, but adjusting to self financing would-be hard with huge cuts in public services 

[LJS]

25 minutes ago, Neil said:

They'd be ok, but adjusting to self financing would-be hard with huge cuts in public services 

We'll be fine in our caves, Neil.

[Neil]

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

We'll be fine in our caves, Neil.

You won't have the bottle to risk it. 

[LJS]

¹

1 minute ago, Neil said:

You won't have the bottle to risk it. 

You are wrong about me. I suspect you may well be correct about the Scottish electorate.

[Neil]

28 minutes ago, LJS said:

¹

You are wrong about me. I suspect you may well be correct about the Scottish electorate.

I was speaking about the Scottish electorate who show little sign of supporting indie. 

[kalifire]

.

Edited February 18, 2023 by kalifire
avoiding this dumpster fire

[pink_triangle]

21 minutes ago, kalifire said:

It's not democratic if one country force a position onto another, though.

Didn’t Scotland vote for that though in the independence vote?

[LJS]

21 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

Didn’t Scotland vote for that though in the independence vote?

 

38 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Yup 

Aye, democracy stopped in 2014.

[LJS]

22 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Once in a generation 

"BORIS JOHNSON has today urged Sunday Express readers to back the Conservative Party in a “critical once in a generation election” on Thursday."

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1214450/boris-johnson-letter-general-election-2019-tory-party-labour-jeremy-corbyn-latest

[LJS]

Ach, there's me thought you understood the distinction between an opinion and a commitment, Barry. I guess I was over estimating your intellectual ability.

And even if Eck had said "I solemnly promise there will be no further referendums for a Billion years" - he has absolutely no right to commit future governments to any such promise. 

[Comfy Bean]

8 minutes ago, LJS said:

Ach, there's me thought you understood the distinction between an opinion and a commitment, Barry. I guess I was over estimating your intellectual ability.

And even if Eck had said "I solemnly promise there will be no further referendums for a Billion years" - he has absolutely no right to commit future governments to any such promise. 

I think the vast majority of folk recognise that line as the standard attempt to get your vote out that it was. 

That’s before we even consider the significance of the Brexit vote which again, most sensible punters see as a significant change in the political landscape.
Certainly more relevant than …..ah but Alex Salmond said…others will disagree 🤷‍♂️

Edited February 19, 2023 by Comfy Bean

[LJS]

14 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

I remember you saying at the time you would accept the outcome 🙂 

I did accept the outcome.

14 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Would you have welcomed multiple referendum on rejoining the UK if you had won ? 🙂 

In an independent Scotland, if the punters elect a party to government with that in their manifesto, I would accept a referendum to rejoin the UK. I would only accept multiple referendums without a reasonable gap if there has been a significant change in circumstances as happened when Scotland was dragged kicking and screaming out of the EU.

[pink_triangle]

11 minutes ago, LJS said:

I did accept the outcome.

In an independent Scotland, if the punters elect a party to government with that in their manifesto, I would accept a referendum to rejoin the UK. I would only accept multiple referendums without a reasonable gap if there has been a significant change in circumstances as happened when Scotland was dragged kicking and screaming out of the EU.

Who determines a significant change in circumstances? That sounds quite vague. 

[Comfy Bean]

42 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Who determines a significant change in circumstances? That sounds quite vague. 

It can’t be vague PT when a specific example is given within the post you quote 🤷‍♂️

I do not believe for a second that you personally don’t see exiting the eu as a significant change in circs 🤞

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, Comfy Bean said:

It can’t be vague PT when a specific example is given within the post you quote 🤷‍♂️

I do not believe for a second that you personally don’t see exiting the eu as a significant change in circs 🤞

I took it as being in a post Brexit world where SNP had then won a referendum. LJS said he would accept multiple referendums  (against his view) with a significant change. The big question to me then is which side decides what is a significant change.

[LJS]

16 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I took it as being in a post Brexit world where SNP had then won a referendum. LJS said he would accept multiple referendums  (against his view) with a significant change. The big question to me then is which side decides what is a significant change.

I think in a democracy, the idea is you persuade the voters that there has been a significant change & get them to vote for you. Ultimately if people vote for something, they should get it.

[fraybentos1]

A few thoughts on the SNP leadership candidates now Robertson has ruled himself out and imo it makes very bad reading for the SNP:

Regan- total no hoper but potential to split the party even more over GRA reform lines. never gonna win imo, only supported by weirdos like wings and salmond 

Forbes- vaguely competent by snp standards (not a high bar), but a bit on the right in terms of the fiscal side of things it seems? Also hates gays and abortions and while that’s obv not a pressing issue atm policy wise it can easily derail things. Just ask Tim Farron. Also anti GRA reform so greens would have a hissy fit (lol)

 

yousaf- indescribably incompetent and a failure in all his roles in government. Keeps falling upwards tho so who knows. 
 

All  three seem a disaster to me. Happy to hear other views 

 

 

[Neil]

18 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

All  three seem a disaster to me. Happy to hear other views 

i don't think any of them will be able to grow support for indie.

[fraybentos1]

17 minutes ago, Neil said:

i don't think any of them will be able to grow support for indie.

Absolutely agree, the fact Robertson and Mcallan and Gray aren’t standing to me suggests the think they will have an easier time being leader next time which imo won’t be more than a couple of years 

[fraybentos1]

26 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

I think the SNP was hoping Brexit being such a mess would help them but I think its just focused the Scots on how much a UK break up would hurt us all.  It would be way more complex than Brexit and way more painful.

I don't think any SNP leader can turn this around.  

You’re correct in saying the snp thought brexit would get them to 60 odd percent for Indy in the polls. The day after the brexit ref suggests that to me. Sturgeon was all lost correct there and can see why she thought it. The literal day after the result my mum (staunch unionist but also remainer and hates the snp) was almost wavering and considered indy. It was a pretty brutal day if u voted remain.

 

Anyway, by the time the 2017 election rolled around their thinking backfired and somehow brexit wasn’t the main story of the election and no one could be fucked with Indy. Then they lost a good few seats and had to retreat. 
 

anyway my main point is - If sturgeon couldn’t get Scotland closer to Indy then there’s literally no chance humza or Forbes can.

[Neil]

2 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

I think the SNP was hoping Brexit being such a mess would help them but I think its just focused the Scots on how much a UK break up would hurt us all.  It would be way more complex than Brexit and way more painful.

I don't think any SNP leader can turn this around.  

the lines the snp use for brexit (the bad effect of creating borders with your biggest market)  also apply for indie.

[pink_triangle]

I think it is amazing that a party who many supporters (including some on here) claim to be left wing, is considering in 2022 choosing a leader who can’t say it’s great that 2 men can marry if they choose, or can’t fully get behind a woman’s right to choose.