Should Nina Kraviz have been booked for Arcadia?

[stuie]

54 minutes ago, Mark_safc said:

I'm assuming that's a light hearted joke because you don't like Boris. If it's not then in reality half of the UK artists / performers would have to be scratched off...

Yes it was a joke but I’d seriously question your estimate of how many artists are Tories! I think it’s way out. 

[Florian Saucer Attack]

3 minutes ago, stuie said:

Yes it was a joke but I’d seriously question your estimate of how many artists are Tories! I think it’s way out. 

Creative people tend to be more left leaning so maybe Noel Gallagher is a Tory but I'm not sure who else from the line up would be 

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

1 minute ago, Florian Saucer Attack said:

Creative people tend to be more left leaning so maybe Noel Gallagher is a Tory but I'm not sure who else from the line up would be 

Plus I reckon a lot that actually are Tory will say they’re left leaning anyway.

[Watergirl]

Had never heard about Nina Kraviz until today, and I know nothing about the kind of music she is involved in. This is interesting - albeit non-political and not very relevant to this discussion.

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Watergirl

[Suprefan]

15 hours ago, Florian Saucer Attack said:

If Amber Heard's lawyer was on this forum (and we don't know for certain that they are not) they would say: 'Hearsay!'

I object to my own question!

[gigpusher]

15 hours ago, SouthbanKen said:

That might be true, my point is more that she is being painted as pro war and there is literally no evidence that this is the case. 

No she is being painted as having been pro-Putin which there is evidence of. Maybe in the fullnesss of time when we know more she'll say she was Pro-Putin right up until the moment he invaded Ukraine but even so from my perspective she does not add anywhere near enough to the line up for a festival where some of the profits are going toward the victims of a war that a leader that she has supported has caused. At a time when there is government sanctions against the state it seems to be unwise and an unnecessary distraction to have her on the line up. How many people at the festival will have her as a must see. Do we really think her inclusion was merited at this moment in history.  

If she had a history of being anti-Putin I'd be perfectly happy. 

If we continue to use the Brexit analogy. If because of Brexit Britain had gone to war with Europe and was killing European people I'd think people would be quite right to say Roger Daltrey/ Morrissey etc shouldn't play. I think it would be harsh if they did the same with Tim Burgess or Gruff Rhys who have vocally criticised the government and Brexit. 

I have been chatting with one of my Ukrainian colleagues about the festival. I shared the initial line up poster, I shared that Emily was fighting to take in a Ukrainian family. I didn't share this poster with him because I was ashamed that at this moment in time someone who there is any doubt about would be booked to play this festival at this time. 

[SouthbanKen]

1 hour ago, gigpusher said:

No she is being painted as having been pro-Putin which there is evidence of. Maybe in the fullnesss of time when we know more she'll say she was Pro-Putin right up until the moment he invaded Ukraine but even so from my perspective she does not add anywhere near enough to the line up for a festival where some of the profits are going toward the victims of a war that a leader that she has supported has caused. At a time when there is government sanctions against the state it seems to be unwise and an unnecessary distraction to have her on the line up. How many people at the festival will have her as a must see. Do we really think her inclusion was merited at this moment in history.  

If she had a history of being anti-Putin I'd be perfectly happy. 

If we continue to use the Brexit analogy. If because of Brexit Britain had gone to war with Europe and was killing European people I'd think people would be quite right to say Roger Daltrey/ Morrissey etc shouldn't play. I think it would be harsh if they did the same with Tim Burgess or Gruff Rhys who have vocally criticised the government and Brexit. 

I have been chatting with one of my Ukrainian colleagues about the festival. I shared the initial line up poster, I shared that Emily was fighting to take in a Ukrainian family. I didn't share this poster with him because I was ashamed that at this moment in time someone who there is any doubt about would be booked to play this festival at this time. 

I can understand why people wouldn't want an act that is Pro War playing the festival. I wouldn't want a Pro War act playing the festival. I think my position is the same as many on here, differing only in as much that I would like a higher burden of proof of any such act being Pro War. The best evidence against her that i have seen is a Pro Putin tweet from 2016. The most recent evidence of her views on war is a peace message on tik tok from a couple of weeks ago. 

And, I'm sorry, but i have to disagree on your opening line, I think she is being painted as pro war - even if people don't have the evidence to come out and say it directly: 

"One of the world superpowers is killing the citizens of its sovereign European neighbours. How can anyone be ‘neutral’ about that?"

"By being pro-putin, you are automatically pro-war imo - its part of the package"

"She’s a known dickhead before the Russian invasion. After it nailed on Scummer."

"She finds herself on the wrong side of the debate" 

"she posted a picture of a Soviet Flag being hiked up in Berlin during WW2"

 

And finally, as for the bit on bold - how many acts that supported Blair were people calling for a ban on during the invasion of Iraq? I wasn't attending the festival at the time, so i might be wrong, but i would assume it was a big fat zero. You can't hold her historic support of Putin against her in this context. Its both unfair and entirely hypocritical, given that we were all happily guzzling their gas and oil in 2016 and right up until this year.  This extends to your argument about Morrisey and Roger Daltrey. I voted remain, I campaigned remain, I marched for remain and a peoples vote - but to suggest that if Brexit tangentially led to a war between the UK and Europe, that those who voted for Brexit were somehow supportive of the war is nonsense. I know various people who voted for Brexit, and i don't believe for a minute any of them were implicitly voting to sanction a war with Europe! 

 

[blutarsky]

7 minutes ago, SouthbanKen said:

how many acts that supported Blair were people calling for a ban on during the invasion of Iraq? I wasn't attending the festival at the time, so i might be wrong, but i would assume it was a big fat zero. 

Given the mood in the country at the time, I wouldn't have thought you'd find many acts that outright supported the invasion of Iraq, and most probably opposed it. Even Noel Gallagher for example (this is from the first Google result).

[gigpusher]

6 minutes ago, SouthbanKen said:

I can understand why people wouldn't want an act that is Pro War playing the festival. I wouldn't want a Pro War act playing the festival. I think my position is the same as many on here, differing only in as much that I would like a higher burden of proof of any such act being Pro War. The best evidence against her that i have seen is a Pro Putin tweet from 2016. The most recent evidence of her views on war is a peace message on tik tok from a couple of weeks ago. 

And, I'm sorry, but i have to disagree on your opening line, I think she is being painted as pro war - even if people don't have the evidence to come out and say it directly: 

"One of the world superpowers is killing the citizens of its sovereign European neighbours. How can anyone be ‘neutral’ about that?"

"By being pro-putin, you are automatically pro-war imo - its part of the package"

"She’s a known dickhead before the Russian invasion. After it nailed on Scummer."

"She finds herself on the wrong side of the debate" 

"she posted a picture of a Soviet Flag being hiked up in Berlin during WW2"

 

And finally, as for the bit on bold - how many acts that supported Blair were people calling for a ban on during the invasion of Iraq? I wasn't attending the festival at the time, so i might be wrong, but i would assume it was a big fat zero. You can't hold her historic support of Putin against her in this context. Its both unfair and entirely hypocritical, given that we were all happily guzzling their gas and oil in 2016 and right up until this year.  This extends to your argument about Morrisey and Roger Daltrey. I voted remain, I campaigned remain, I marched for remain and a peoples vote - but to suggest that if Brexit tangentially led to a war between the UK and Europe, that those who voted for Brexit were somehow supportive of the war is nonsense. I know various people who voted for Brexit, and i don't believe for a minute any of them were implicitly voting to sanction a war with Europe! 

 

I can only speak for myself and what I am saying is that I don't think at this moment in time a Russian person with a history of being Pro-Putin should be playing the festival whether they are pro or anti war. A couple of weeks ago I said to my husband that I actually felt a little sorry for the athletes who get caught up in it. They have a short career and whether they are Pro or Anti Putin they are not being allowed to compete. He said it's a fairly small problem in comparison to those having their homes bombed and their lives taken. We as a country have chosen not to invade Russia but to help Ukraine and to have economic sanctions against Russia. 

I think it is fair to extend that to all Russians who have a history of being pro the leader that has taken this action because their support has enabled and emboldened him. 

I would think the same way about Brexiters if it had ended in war. Did they vote actually for war no but they support and embolden a leader to behave appallingly.  

[SouthbanKen]

6 minutes ago, blutarsky said:

Given the mood in the country at the time, I wouldn't have thought you'd find many acts that outright supported the invasion of Iraq, and most probably opposed it. Even Noel Gallagher for example (this is from the first Google result).

That is exactly my point, plenty of artists were supportive of Blair prior to the invasion, but AFAIK there wasn't a huge commotion for them all to be banned after the invasion - which is what people are calling for with Nina Kravis. She was supportive of Putin in 2016, so she must be banned for Putin's actions in 2022 - it doesn't make any sense to me 

By the way, in all of this, if someone does find evidence for her supporting the war, I am more than happy to change my position. 

[gigpusher]

Just now, SouthbanKen said:

That is exactly my point, plenty of artists were supportive of Blair prior to the invasion, but AFAIK there wasn't a huge commotion for them all to be banned after the invasion - which is what people are calling for with Nina Kravis. She was supportive of Putin in 2016, so she must be banned for Putin's actions in 2022 - it doesn't make any sense to me 

By the way, in all of this, if someone does find evidence for her supporting the war, I am more than happy to change my position. 

But the way we are dealing with what is happening in Russia is sanctions. We are sanctioning ordinary people. I have friends in Russia who can't buy things they previously could, who have lost a huge amount despite never liking or supporting Putin whereas she has been Pro-Putin and is happily living in Europe and being booked by festivals and clubs. If we weren't sanctioning anyone else then I'd still find it distasteful but not so vehemently. 

[SouthbanKen]

6 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

I can only speak for myself and what I am saying is that I don't think at this moment in time a Russian person with a history of being Pro-Putin should be playing the festival whether they are pro or anti war. A couple of weeks ago I said to my husband that I actually felt a little sorry for the athletes who get caught up in it. They have a short career and whether they are Pro or Anti Putin they are not being allowed to compete. He said it's a fairly small problem in comparison to those having their homes bombed and their lives taken. We as a country have chosen not to invade Russia but to help Ukraine and to have economic sanctions against Russia. 

I think it is fair to extend that to all Russians who have a history of being pro the leader that has taken this action because their support has enabled and emboldened him. 

I would think the same way about Brexiters if it had ended in war. Did they vote actually for war no but they support and embolden a leader to behave appallingly.  

Fair enough. I assume then that you are also against any act that publicly supported Blair prior to the invasion of Iraq? Noel Gallagher, Billy Bragg, Paul McArtney plus countless others - All need to be struck off the line up then? 

[blutarsky]

9 minutes ago, SouthbanKen said:

That is exactly my point, plenty of artists were supportive of Blair prior to the invasion, but AFAIK there wasn't a huge commotion for them all to be banned after the invasion - which is what people are calling for with Nina Kravis. She was supportive of Putin in 2016, so she must be banned for Putin's actions in 2022 - it doesn't make any sense to me 

By the way, in all of this, if someone does find evidence for her supporting the war, I am more than happy to change my position. 

I think my point is that even the likes of Noel publicly opposed the invasion at the time. Billy Bragg certainly did. 

[SouthbanKen]

4 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

But the way we are dealing with what is happening in Russia is sanctions. We are sanctioning ordinary people. I have friends in Russia who can't buy things they previously could, who have lost a huge amount despite never liking or supporting Putin whereas she has been Pro-Putin and is happily living in Europe and being booked by festivals and clubs. If we weren't sanctioning anyone else then I'd still find it distasteful but not so vehemently. 

We are applying sanctions for their recent actions. Her most recent action is to call for peace. 

[SouthbanKen]

3 minutes ago, blutarsky said:

I think my point is that even the likes of Noel publicly opposed the invasion at the time. Billy Bragg certainly did. 

Would you agree that calling for Peace is "opposing the invasion"?

Also, would you agree that at no point in publicly opposing the invasion were Noel's or Billy Braggs families at risk of government sanctioned harassment or violence. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by SouthbanKen

[stuie]

1 minute ago, SouthbanKen said:

We are applying sanctions for their recent actions. Her most recent action is to call for peace. 

I think the way she 'called for peace' is one of the issues.  It wasn't convincing, didn't show her face, she didn't say it - she wrote anonymously on a piece of paper.   It was also a week after the bombs started dropping when she'd been called out for not saying anything. 

[SouthbanKen]

2 minutes ago, stuie said:

I think the way she 'called for peace' is one of the issues.  It wasn't convincing, didn't show her face, she didn't say it - she wrote anonymously on a piece of paper.   It was also a week after the bombs started dropping when she'd been called out for not saying anything. 

I get that to a point, but:

1. A high profile Russian speaking out against Putin or the War in a direct way is to put it frankly, fucking dangerous for them and their family. Massive respect to Medvedev and others who have done it, but I find it difficult to criticise people for not taking actions that could legit put themselves or their family in actual mortal danger. 

2. I'm not sure that she did anything "anonymously" given that it was on her personal tick tock account. 

[SouthbanKen]

I need to get on with some work - I didn't even know who fucking Nina Kravis was before last week. 

Much love to all. 

Peace Out. 

 

[Hugh Jass II]

19 hours ago, Mark_safc said:

Yes 100% she should be booked. Her political views should not be taken into account at all. 

World politics are very complicated and in the west we only hear / see the propaganda churned out by our media. Couldn't give a toss whether she is a Putin supporter or not...she is a talented DJ and no doubt her set at Arcadia will be great.

Never knew Matt Le Tissier posted on here...

[Junglist1981]

That is true though tbf. Yes our media is more open, and propaganda is far worse in places like Russia China etc, but much of our newspaper output in particular is  partisan propaganda in the main.

Also hardly any of us read news from elsewhere.

[TheDayman]

As mentioned in my original post, the general consensus is that there is no evidence to state that she is Pro-War. Plenty here stating they haven't seen much to make a judgement (as I did also) so here's the original video that began my change in thinking -

This is a segment from the film on Mikhail Khodorkoysky an exiled Russian businessman / Oligarch , who fell foul of Vladimir Putin. Have a read, particularly the section on his relationship with Putin:

 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Khodorkovsky

When Nina was addressed on this a few years later in an interview, she effectively confirmed that her opinion has not changed and rather she now just keeps it to herself rather than argue with the more liberal minded. Full text attached below.

Now fast forward to more recently, we have videos of her performing at private parties for Russian Oligarchs as well as fellow DJs making pretty strong claims, the most pointed of which coming from Ukrainian DJ Nadia who claims that in a conversation with her in 2014 regarding the annexation of Crimea, she states that Putin was "the smartest man".

This is the context that changed my position on her. I went from "I'm not just going to believe a few social media comments" to "actually, there are direct quotes and comments from Nina that substantiate the claims against her". 

I'm not going to go as far as saying she is Pro-War (even the phrase is silly, is anyone really Pro-War?) but I do believe she is Pro-Russian state, was Pro-Putin at least up until very recently and may very well be someone who considers the invasion of Ukraine a "special military operation" rather than the outright war that is.

These are the reasons I believe her addition to the lineup is in poor taste and personally think she'll be removed from the lineup before the festival.

 

[Florian Saucer Attack]

We are going round in circles now. The folk who believe Nina Kravis is pro-Putin or pro-war need to provide actual evidence or you've clearly lost the debate.

By clear evidence I mean a quote or a video from from a reliable source.

Not hearsay from other DJ's, a meme of Putin wearing sunglasses, a picture where she has written peace or (most bizarrely) a supposed picture she posted of the Soviets defeating the Nazi's and ending WW2. 

[TheDayman]

18 minutes ago, Florian Saucer Attack said:

We are going round in circles now. The folk who believe Nina Kravis is pro-Putin or pro-war need to provide actual evidence or you've clearly lost the debate.

By clear evidence I mean a quote or a video from from a reliable source.

Not hearsay from other DJ's, a meme of Putin wearing sunglasses, a picture where she has written peace or (most bizarrely) a supposed picture she posted of the Soviets defeating the Nazi's and ending WW2. 

I just did, right before your post.

[gigpusher]

1 hour ago, SouthbanKen said:

We are applying sanctions for their recent actions. Her most recent action is to call for peace. 

We're not. Roman Abramovich has recently been involved with peace talks but he has still quite rightly been sanctioned. You could argue that being involved in peace talks is even more anti-war than writing the word peace on a bit of paper but his history is being taken into account. Anyone with little morals can turn on a friend when the wind changes if it helps you keep your job. 

[Bucketsquad]

1 hour ago, SouthbanKen said:

We are applying sanctions for their recent actions. Her most recent action is to call for peace. 

Calling for peace and calling out Putin are 2 completely different things though.