Football 19/20

[CRW5252]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

so what you're saying is that you want VAR but you don't much care if a VAR ruling is actually accurate...? 

I think that's probably the maddest one I've seen so far.  

Didn't say that. Quick and accurate is what VAR should be and I think it eventually will be. 

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, CRW5252 said:

Erm... Not what I said. Can VAR not be quick and accurate? 

nope, not always.

Some incidents need to be looked at from multiple angles a number of different times in order to get a firm opinion on what exactly happened. 

The need for a long review can't be removed without removing some of the accuracy of the review process - when the whole point of the review process is to make an accurate decision about the incident.

If an accurate decision might not be made by the review process, the benefit of the review process is lessened and the justification for a review process is reduced.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

Quick and accurate is what VAR should be and I think it eventually will be. 

It won't eventually be.

One pair of eyes has to sometimes look at all of the angles (and sometimes multiple times) in order to make a decision on an incident.

It can't be done by multiple people each looking at one angle, because reaching a firm conclusion requires all of those angles to be considered alongside each other.

Some of the things which get reviewed might get a bit quicker (for instance offside, which is a fairly straightforwards decision and often from just one angle) but even then how much of an improvement is limited by human abilities.

[jyoung]

1 hour ago, Wooderson said:

VAR is the future of the game. Get with it or pick up another hobby.

Agree with this tbh.

[Wooderson]

1 minute ago, jyoung said:

Agree with this tbh.

People complaining about the lack of soap in bathroom 402 on the Titanic.

[CRW5252]

15 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

nope, not always.

Some incidents need to be looked at from multiple angles a number of different times in order to get a firm opinion on what exactly happened. 

The need for a long review can't be removed without removing some of the accuracy of the review process - when the whole point of the review process is to make an accurate decision about the incident.

If an accurate decision might not be made by the review process, the benefit of the review process is lessened and the justification for a review process is reduced.

I think VAR should accurately overturn clear and obvious errors. That is possible without the long review process. 

As I have said, I think they should stop looking at the marginal 'errors' that you are describing. 

[thetime]

1 minute ago, CRW5252 said:

I think VAR should accurately overturn clear and obvious errors. 

What are they?

[eFestivals]

Just now, CRW5252 said:

I think VAR should accurately overturn clear and obvious errors. That is possible without the long review process. 

but the only way you can know if there's a clear and obvious error is by first looking at the incident, where you then might find it's not that clear and needs extra time being looked at.

So if the VAR review gets cancelled as soon as someone has decided it'll take a bit of time (too much time), it becomes a slightly mad scenario where a decision is made that something needs reviewing before deciding it doesn't need reviewing - so then you're getting a delay for VAR without getting any benefit back from VAR.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

As I have said, I think they should stop looking at the marginal 'errors' that you are describing. 

how can they know what is or isn't a marginal error without looking at the incident to know which it is?

Who decides what is marginal?

And why would the flawed-to-the-rules way of working VAR you're suggesting be an improvement on the 'honest errors' that refs sometimes make now for whatever reason?

Edited August 14, 2019 by eFestivals

[TheGayTent]

The magic is in the moment. VAR removes that moment. VAR is awful. 

[Comfy Bean]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

And it's something that been driven from a self-serving club perspective - to try to take away the lucky wins by more-lowly teams, which feeds into a huge part of footie's popularity. It means the hope of winning for lesser teams is reduced and consequently so is the (overall) interest of the fans of those teams.

 

Interested to know what your basing this on ?

I`ve been watching  a " lowly " team all my life. An alternative view to what you`re saying here is that "we" suffer against bigger teams / bigger supports / more media interest who can put more pressure on refs to award them pens, allow marginal goals for them while not doing the same for us.

Taking that view forward, VAR could be good for the smaller sides.

As was mentioned before, I remember plenty of times when from behind the nets I`ve had a glance at the lino just as the ball is hitting the net as from my view it looked like it could be offside so in marginal goals my celebration is already affected. I`d rather goals that are offside or whatever were chalked off.  The vast majority of goals aren`t in doubt VAR or not ?

Are we not talking a small % of the 90mins and I would much rather the decisions were right.

For me it`s clunky and it will improve. Folk at home watching on tv know in seconds if it`s offside or was a penalty etc so this will allow the often forgotten about folk actually at the game to have the same opportunity.

We already have the pretty mad situation of people at the game checking their phones to see if it was offside, handball etc.

Punters will be used to this in no time and the game will move on is my view.

 

@pink_triangle are Wrexham your team ?

 

[CRW5252]

31 minutes ago, thetime said:

What are they?

That's something for the video refs to determine. 

[The Nal]

56 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

Didn't say that. Quick and accurate is what VAR should be and I think it eventually will be. 

How? They still have to stop the celebrations, roll the footage, review a few times in slo-mo with lines and zooming etc. 

32 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

I think VAR should accurately overturn clear and obvious errors. That is possible without the long review process. 

As I have said, I think they should stop looking at the marginal 'errors' that you are describing. 

But an incorrect decision on a throw in 80 yards away can lead to a goal just as much as a foul or an offside or whatever. Throw in, long ball, goal in a few seconds.

Should we review throw ins in the defensive half?

[CRW5252]

30 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

how can they know what is or isn't a marginal error without looking at the incident to know which it is?

Who decides what is marginal?

And why would the flawed-to-the-rules way of working VAR you're suggesting be an improvement on the 'honest errors' that refs sometimes make now for whatever reason?

They are already constantly checking incidents and checking if they are 'clear and obvious errors'. At the moment the problem is the video refs are determining too many errors as 'clear and obvious'. 

[CRW5252]

4 minutes ago, The Nal said:

How? They still have to stop the celebrations, roll the footage, review a few times in slo-mo with lines and zooming etc. 

But an incorrect decision on a throw in 80 yards away can lead to a goal just as much as a foul or an offside or whatever. Throw in, long ball, goal in a few seconds.

Should we review throw ins in the defensive half?

They don't have to do all that, it's just what they do at the moment. 'clear and obvious errors' could be overridden in a few seconds. 

Regarding the throw in question, I would say yes if it all happened in a few seconds (definitely not if it was 20-30 seconds before). 

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

Interested to know what your basing this on ?

simply on the fact that lower teams sometimes get lucky wins against bigger teams, and that will inevitably be reduced via VAR.

And i'd say that "on the day either team could win" is a big part of what makes footie so interesting, so a reduction in the chances of the lesser team winning makes it less interesting.

10 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

Punters will be used to this in no time and the game will move on is my view.

Well clearly some - probably the vast majority - will accept it, but that doesn't mean all will. For some their interest in the game will be reduced, and some newbies might never be attracted that otherwise would be.

And of course the game will move on, but where it moves to is important too. While I agree that VAR improves the game for the players (cos there should only ever be fair wins), I don't see it as anything which makes the game more appealing for spectators - I can't see any extras coming to love footie because of VAR, but I can see fewer finding the game as appealing as now.

[The Nal]

29 minutes ago, TheGayTent said:

The magic is in the moment. VAR removes that moment. VAR is awful. 

Why not do it after the game? The VAR lads will have a whole week to do it.

Play the game with the refs, temporarily award the result, but then review everything over the course of the next week. They won't have to rush and accuracy will be improved. 

[CRW5252]

43 minutes ago, TheGayTent said:

The magic is in the moment. VAR removes that moment. VAR is awful. 

Maybe it is just me but I can honestly say I don't feel any less excited when a goal goes in with VAR in play. 

On the flip side, VAR created an amazing moment in the Spurs vs Man City match last season in the champions league. That was up there with the best games I have ever watched and VAR helped make it that good. If Sterling's goal would have stood that would have left a sour taste and tainted the match. 

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, Comfy Bean said:

Interested to know what your basing this on ?

I`ve been watching  a " lowly " team all my life. An alternative view to what you`re saying here is that "we" suffer against bigger teams / bigger supports / more media interest who can put more pressure on refs to award them pens, allow marginal goals for them while not doing the same 

 

@pink_triangle are Wrexham your team ?

 

Yes I'm a Wrexham fan, like you I don't think I will have to worry about VAR in league matches for a while!

Thinking back to when Wrexham beat Arsenal we wouldn't with VAR. I think removing that little bit of good fortune you need will make upsets slightly less likely.

[Wooderson]

57 minutes ago, The Nal said:

Why not do it after the game? The VAR lads will have a whole week to do it.

Play the game with the refs, temporarily award the result, but then review everything over the course of the next week. They won't have to rush and accuracy will be improved. 

Get rid of refs. Maximum spontaneity.

[Wooderson]

3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Yes I'm a Wrexham fan, like you I don't think I will have to worry about VAR in league matches for a while!

Thinking back to when Wrexham beat Arsenal we wouldn't with VAR. I think removing that little bit of good fortune you need will make upsets slightly less likely.

I bought a Wrexham shirt for Louis Capaldi back in June. True story.

[jyoung]

1 hour ago, CRW5252 said:

Maybe it is just me but I can honestly say I don't feel any less excited when a goal goes in with VAR in play. 

Can't say it has toned down my initial buzz either. If something happened in the build up, you'd probably spot it anyway. It is what it is. 

[Wooderson]

3 minutes ago, jyoung said:

Can't say it has toned down my initial buzz either. If something happened in the build up, you'd probably spot it anyway. It is what it is. 

I thought City's players were being a bit twatty at the weekend.

[Comfy Bean]

27 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Yes I'm a Wrexham fan, like you I don't think I will have to worry about VAR in league matches for a while!

Thinking back to when Wrexham beat Arsenal we wouldn't with VAR. I think removing that little bit of good fortune you need will make upsets slightly less likely.

Yeah I don`t think the top league in Scotland can afford it so not expecting it at our games anytime soon.

You ( Wrexham ) have just drawn Ayr in the Tunnocks Cup

Dates tbc so might clash with International games I`m already going to.

[Comfy Bean]

28 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

I bought a Wrexham shirt for Louis Capaldi back in June. True story.

....................... go on