Jeremy Corbyn

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, TheNoise said:

I hope it would be a straight remain/leave choice. Imagine how shit it would be if the options were May's deal/no deal.

I'd say that the leave choice has to be defined, as being one of the possible options, of May's deal, no-deal, or perhaps even Norway++.

If it's just an undefined 'leave' that doesn't really help with anything, as we've done that already to get us to the deadlock we have now.

(I'm quite happy for more than one option to be put against remain, too. I don't think it helps if it looks like a stitch up).

[Superunknown]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'd say that the leave choice has to be defined, as being one of the possible options, of May's deal, no-deal, or perhaps even Norway++.

If it's just an undefined 'leave' that doesn't really help with anything, as we've done that already to get us to the deadlock we have now.

(I'm quite happy for more than one option to be put against remain, too. I don't think it helps if it looks like a stitch up).

Issue is Brexiters then will try and claim that it splits their vote share while Remain can keep the majority. 

[incident]

Just now, Superunknown said:

Issue is Brexiters then will try and claim that it splits their vote share while Remain can keep the majority. 

If there was a multi-way vote, it'd be STV which would invalidate that claim.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, FrancisH said:

She has already said that she will not budge on her 'principles', secondly what other parties are asking for would mean civil war in the Tory party which has already been stated by the hard brexiteers within the party if she budges on some of her existing red lines.

This entire thing is purely an exercise in time wasting posturing. To think May will even 'think' about anything is delusion. In a few weeks time May will dump exactly the same deal in front of parliament, having killed some time in the process with 'constructive talks' and the threat of no deal much more real.

She's said she won't budge on her principles, but she said there wouldn't be an election once too. 

It's clear from what the other leaders reported that she took the time to discuss plenty that's outside of those 'principles', and had meetings over-run while she did. She's not completely shut off to other ideas; whether they change her mind is another thing.

It might be a waste of time, but if you don't try you're sure to fail.

(and Jez didn't have a problem with his own time wasting yesterday with a vote he knew he couldn't win).

If May is working to the plan you say then Jez meeting her yesterday would have changed nothing of the outcome but would have put in him in the clear as the good guy who's trying, instead of looking like an obstructionist.

[thrillhouse188]

Government needs to get together a deal that can make it past parliamentary vote, at which point, when we know what a final deal looks like, take it to a ref for the people to vote through/reject. I'd have the vote split in the sense you vote on two things, firstly whether to leave or remain, then also vote on which deal you want (or deal/no deal) depending on the options. That way you don't split the leave vote unfairly, and EVERYONE gets a say on a deal in the case we leave, that's my 2¢ ?‍♂️

[Superunknown]

3 minutes ago, incident said:

If there was a multi-way vote, it'd be STV which would invalidate that claim.

I see, that didn't even occur to me. Would make for an interesting referendum if it came to pass.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Superunknown said:

Issue is Brexiters then will try and claim that it splits their vote share while Remain can keep the majority. 

I wasn't suggesting more than two choices in any one vote.

There could be a series of votes:
remain vs May's deal
remain vs no-deal
remain vs Norway-something

That sort of thing. 

I'm not necessarily suggesting that's what happens, just that I'm not hostile to any sensible options if there were a 2nd vote.

When brexit can mean anything to anyone it can command a majority. When the real world is voted on I'm pretty confident that it can't.

[FrancisH]

Just now, eFestivals said:

She's said she won't budge on her principles, but she said there wouldn't be an election once too. 

It's clear from what the other leaders reported that she took the time to discuss plenty that's outside of those 'principles', and had meetings over-run while she did. She's not completely shut off to other ideas; whether they change her mind is another thing. 

It might be a waste of time, but if you don't try you're sure to fail.

(and Jez didn't have a problem with his own time wasting yesterday with a vote he knew he couldn't win).

If May is working to the plan you say then Jez meeting her yesterday would have changed nothing of the outcome but would have put in him in the clear as the good guy who's trying, instead of looking like an obstructionist.

I'm not defending Corbyn's actions really - I do think he should talk to her. I'm just saying she won't change anything because of the ramifications it will have on her own party.

[kingbadger]

2nd referendum, straight choice between remain or no deal Brexit. The current deal is dead in the water, there's no magic compromise that is going to get it over the line and no consensus on what this deal needs to be in the Tory party, let alone across parliament.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, FrancisH said:

I'm just saying she won't change anything because of the ramifications it will have on her own party.

but there's also ramifications onto her party from running down the clock. The problems are inescapable, and for the other parties as well as the tories (as might be noted from the slagging Corbyn/Labour are getting right here and now).

I've no real idea what's going to happen, but my money is on something happening where May's current stand is bent elsewhere.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, kingbadger said:

The current deal is dead in the water, there's no magic compromise that is going to get it over the line

I reckon it would get thru quite comfortably without the backstop in there. It's that claim over UK sovereignty that lots of MPs have a problem with.

[kingbadger]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

I reckon it would get thru quite comfortably without the backstop in there. It's that claim over UK sovereignty that lots of MPs have a problem with.

But the EU has already said the back stop is non negotiable. As you said above the Irish border issue was always going to be the sticking point. Not sure how there is another way around it unless we crash out.

The main fuck up is not going in with parliamentary consensus to start with. You can't negotiate a deal without knowing what the people who need to support it want. It's ludicrous. If there was cross party co-operation from the get go we'd have either known there would never be a consensus on a deal or a deal would have been reached that would get through parliament.

Either fuck the whole thing off or just go without a deal and fuck the country. Give the country the choice on that and draw a line under it. There's no way a no deal/remain binary referendum will end up with us leaving, even our electorate couldn't fuck that decision up.

[thrillhouse188]

2 minutes ago, kingbadger said:

even our electorate couldn't fuck that decision up.

famous last words

[hfuhruhurr]

2nd referendum, the question, given that we import all our bog roll from the EU should be

I would like a hard brexit and never be allowed to poo again?
[yes]

[no]

[Hugh Jass]

1 minute ago, hfuhruhurr said:

2nd referendum, the question, given that we import all our bog roll from the EU should be

I would like a hard brexit and never be allowed to poo again?
[yes]

[no]

The copies of Teresa's plan will keep us all going for a long time.

[mashedonmud]

1 hour ago, Homer said:

'Can I have a general election please?'

Your namesake could do a better Job.

Homer for PM, either one.

Please accept my sincerest apologies if your the one and only Homer.

Edited January 17, 2019 by mashedonmud

[TheNoise]

7 minutes ago, mashedonmud said:

Your namesake could do a better Job.

Homer for PM, either one.

Please accept my sincerest apologies if that's the real Homer

Get it in an episode of The Simpsons, it's bound to happen then.

[mashedonmud]

3 minutes ago, TheNoise said:

Get it in an episode of The Simpsons, it's bound to happen then.

Unfortunately not even James L Brooks could produce anything as disturbingly comical as our modern politics, nor could Matt Groening ever design a caricature to amplify the twisted characteristics of this shower of shite governing us. 

I'm gonna open a bottle and drown my sorrows. Maybe two. 

 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, kingbadger said:

But the EU has already said the back stop is non negotiable.

Yup. But as the EU know that a claim over another's sovereignty is a never-do in the world of diplomacy, it might be reasonably suggested that they always wanted to force a choice between remain and no-deal.

If they did, I don't really have a problem with that. They're allowed to play things for their own interests as much as the UK is.

[bombfrog]

1 hour ago, mashedonmud said:

Your namesake could do a better Job.

Homer for PM, either one.

Please accept my sincerest apologies if your the one and only Homer.

Either one? The eFestivaler, the cartoon character or the Greek poet?

[mashedonmud]

51 minutes ago, bombfrog said:

Either one? The eFestivaler, the cartoon character or the Greek poet?

I may be showing my lack of knowledge regards poetry. I'll add the Greek poet to the list of preferable PM's. I'm presuming the  Greek poet is somewhat dead,  still get my vote ahead of what we have, by a long margin.  I'll get the shovel out of my shed if you give me directions  ?

[Mr.Tease]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I'd say that the leave choice has to be defined, as being one of the possible options, of May's deal, no-deal, or perhaps even Norway++.

If it's just an undefined 'leave' that doesn't really help with anything, as we've done that already to get us to the deadlock we have now.

(I'm quite happy for more than one option to be put against remain, too. I don't think it helps if it looks like a stitch up).

I do think Norway++ is the way forward, but like I said a few weeks ago, maybe the best way is to have Norway++ as the backstop (with an exit mechanism like article 50) , followed by an election in which parties can then say what they will aim to get in the negotiations to avoid the backstop.

Gives them then time and a chance to either go for Canada model, stick with Norway but try and tweek it, or opt to stay in. Satisfies all parties (ERG can push for Canada, remainders can fathom out whether to stick with Norway or revert to remain etc) and everyone then knows what the fallback position will be if negotiations are unsuccessful. 

For me that takes no deal off the table in a safer way than a second referendum and respects the outcome of the first while giving scope to undoing it without looking like a con job. 

[Mr.Tease]

I do get the point about the optics of Corbyn not going to see May (he could have just gone to deliver his stance), but I do think the invitation is just more game playing to run down the clock--why do mps keep trusting May only to act surprised when she double crosses them? 

Case points: before the no confidence motion, May says she won't talk to Corbyn to keep the ERG support, then she wins it and immediately invites him.

Then yesterday Philip Hammond is wheeled out to reassure business by telling them no deal will be taken off the table, then today May declares in a letter that's impossible. 

When she faced her tory vote of no confidence she reassured them by promising she'd get legally binding reasurrence on the backstop. Again never happened and wasn't possible. 

Why carry on with the charade of engaging with her? 

So while Corbyn not going to see her might look bad, I do wish all MPs would stop playing her game by enduldging these pretend discussions - was hoping this would happen next week after they voted on her plan b motion, but now she's delayed that opportunity to the following week to run down more of the clock. 

[stuartbert two hats]

I suspect he wouldn't get quite as a warm welcome at the Pyramid this year, the Brexit shit.

[Crazyfool01]

I suspect the only warm welcome he would get would be at the long drops ( other forms of toilet are available )