Are Tories welcome at Glastonbury

[Rose-Colored Boy]

29 minutes ago, sime said:

So you are ok with ignoring actual, proven facts from the Remain side, presented at the time and proven to be true. While the other side clearly had hardly any facts but lots of conjecture. Ok then...!!

It is unfortunate that we’re now in a constant back and forth which goes along the lines of:

Leaver: “the public knew what they were voting for, and we mustn’t leave the single market”

Remainer: “but before the referendum you insisted that the positives of leaving the single market would outweigh the negatives, and that saying otherwise was Project Fear!”

Leaver: “I don’t remember saying that, we must leave the single market because the people voted for that when fully aware of the consequences! There there can be no compromising!” 

Remainers: ...

The watching world: ...

The EU: “now that the facts have become clearer and there’s significant evidence of illegal underhand foreign governmental backing of the Leave campaign you don’t HAVE to leave, you could always reconsider it”

Remainers: “Great idea, let’s have a second referendum now that the facts are clear and the validity of the original result is significantly in doubt”

Leavers/the government: “NO! We must not have another public vote, that would be completely undemocratic (sic)”

And round and round we go? Sorry to invoke Godwin’s law but at least when people voted for Hitler they were putting faith in convincing propaganda and public speakers? In 50 years time people will look back on this period with exactly the same perplexion as we do the 1930s, if not more so.  I mean, honestly ...

Edited October 14, 2018 by Rose-Colored Boy

[sime]

Just now, glastolover19 said:

Actual facts? Sorry but wasn't everything presented as actual fact at that time? Whilst I appreciate your disappointed that it didn't go you way that's not really my fault,maybe if more folks didn't vote instead of being bullied into it,it may have swung your way. Hindsight is wonderful my friend. 

Actual facts presented by the people I listened to (other than my own voice), the scientists, economic experts and sociologists. Not the politicians themselves particularly as I was well aware they were all just posturing... So no, not hindsight in the slightest.

[glastolover19]

3 minutes ago, sime said:

Actual facts presented by the people I listened to (other than my own voice), the scientists, economic experts and sociologists. Not the politicians themselves particularly as I was well aware they were all just posturing... So no, not hindsight in the slightest.

But did you actually listen to every side of the arguments or did you just radiate to the ones that were already in line with your views?

[sime]

5 minutes ago, slash's hat said:

I understand how people didn't know which way to turn tbh. If it was ripping apart both the political parties internally, I can't see how it was as cut and dry as you make out. Whichever party you normally chose to look to for guidance had it's for and against members. Alright a lot of people were suckered in by the suggestion of millions more to the nhs, which was never going to happen, but I think it's come as a surprise to many average folk how much it's going to cost to leave, let alone issues such as the Irish border etc.

All everyone had to do was listen to what the scientists, economic experts etc were saying. They were presenting clear information on problems which would arise if leaving the EU. And they are being proven right. They shouted loud but maybe didn't shout loud enough...

[glastolover19]

5 minutes ago, sime said:

Actual facts presented by the people I listened to (other than my own voice), the scientists, economic experts and sociologists. Not the politicians themselves particularly as I was well aware they were all just posturing... So no, not hindsight in the slightest.

I want to clearly stress that I have no beef at all with you,what you voted and believe is your choice,I totally respect that,each to their own. I do however ask what you think the next step should be?

[eastynh]

Everyone is welcome. Just be tolerant of other people's views and don't be a knob.

Edit- Everyone is welcome apart from Stephen Yaxley Lennon.

Edited October 14, 2018 by eastynh

[glastolover19]

2 minutes ago, sime said:

All everyone had to do was listen to what the scientists, economic experts etc were saying. They were presenting clear information on problems which would arise if leaving the EU. And they are being proven right. They shouted loud but maybe didn't shout loud enough...

That was my point about hindsight,they are being proven right now

[Woffy]

13 minutes ago, Apone said:

OK does Glastonbury give out concession tickets to the poor and needy and those on benefits who'd like to go, is there diversity amongst attendees. I see Glastonbury as a rich white person's festival, which is actually fine in itself as long as you dont then pretend youre an inclusive diversity rich festival of worthiness,  though hey you get Leftfield and Bragg to shout 'Tory scum' and you get to laugh at the massively offensive advertising hordings at Block9, and lets have some anti-semitic, anti capitalist tropes behind John Peel stage, and lets have a Greenpeace girl lecture me about the evil oil industry while drinking from a plastic bottle of water. All the Lefties can get their sanctimonious glow and swoon at Comrade Corbyn even though they've happily parted with the best part of 300 quid  and indulged in capitalism in the most blatant and flagrant manner, Meanwhile Mr Eavis can before and after still do his dairy farming with all the inherent cruelty that industry requires. I for one have had enough of this gross display of hypocrisy, if you dont like my politics then you certainly aint having my money, simple

Some valid points. 

But did you handwrite this and post it in to eFestivals?

[glastolover19]

Just now, eastynh said:

Everyone is welcome. Just be tolerant of other people's views and don't be a knob.

Exactly

[slash's hat]

3 minutes ago, sime said:

All everyone had to do was listen to what the scientists, economic experts etc were saying. They were presenting clear information on problems which would arise if leaving the EU. And they are being proven right. They shouted loud but maybe didn't shout loud enough...

I do recall economic experts being divided too. Plus sadly not everyone has the time or inclination to read extra information. There will be an enormous chunk of the population who voted just on the headlines being generated. Heck, a lot of people wouldn't have a clue what economists were on about. They chose on a personal level. I personally was shocked by how many of mine and my husband's family were leavers. Can't choose family eh?

[sime]

Just now, glastolover19 said:

But did you actually listen to every side of the arguments or did you just radiate to the ones that were already in line with your views?

Even though I knew my heart and mind were on the Remain side, I did read as many reports and forum comment sections as possible both for and against the EU to get a good consensus on how the rest of the nation was thinking. And what I saw from a large number of people planning on voting to leave was a dismission of anyone not Farage or Boris, as if they were the only authority on the subject. When clearly they knew nothing other than how to spin a good lie.

[sime]

3 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

That was my point about hindsight,they are being proven right now

They predicted it back then. That isn't hindsight.

[henry bear]

20 minutes ago, Apone said:

OK does Glastonbury give out concession tickets to the poor and needy and those on benefits who'd like to go, is there diversity amongst attendees. I see Glastonbury as a rich white person's festival, which is actually fine in itself as long as you dont then pretend youre an inclusive diversity rich festival of worthiness,  though hey you get Leftfield and Bragg to shout 'Tory scum' and you get to laugh at the massively offensive advertising hordings at Block9, and lets have some anti-semitic, anti capitalist tropes behind John Peel stage, and lets have a Greenpeace girl lecture me about the evil oil industry while drinking from a plastic bottle of water. All the Lefties can get their sanctimonious glow and swoon at Comrade Corbyn even though they've happily parted with the best part of 300 quid  and indulged in capitalism in the most blatant and flagrant manner, Meanwhile Mr Eavis can before and after still do his dairy farming with all the inherent cruelty that industry requires. I for one have had enough of this gross display of hypocrisy, if you dont like my politics then you certainly aint having my money, simple

Didn’t get a ticket then?

[Rose-Colored Boy]

13 minutes ago, sime said:

They predicted it back then. That isn't hindsight.

And were shouted down, by people who later went on to deny ever hearing anyone warn of the consequences or (worse) are STILL lying through their teeth about the consequences now. This isn’t a democracy and under any respectable government the whole thing would be called off pending an extensive independent inquiry.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Rose-Colored Boy

[sime]

1 minute ago, slash's hat said:

I do recall economic experts being divided too. Plus sadly not everyone has the time or inclination to read extra information. There will be an enormous chunk of the population who voted just on the headlines being generated. Heck, a lot of people wouldn't have a clue what economists were on about. They chose on a personal level. I personally was shocked by how many of mine and my husband's family were leavers. Can't choose family eh?

True. There was division there. And also sadly true that a large number of people just allowed themselves to be directed by the media. Some of the best information I found was in the comments sections of some of those media and internet pages. Amongst all the shouting there was some really good, sound, logical arguments on both sides. Those places really helped cement my decision to vote remain.

[Apone]

2 minutes ago, henry bear said:

Didn’t get a ticket then?

Never tried mate

[sime]

2 minutes ago, Rose-Colored Boy said:

And were shouted down, by people who later went on to deny ever hearing anyone warn of the consequences or (worse) are STILL lying through their teeth about the consequences now.

Sadly true. "We are all dooooomed...!"

[glastolover19]

10 minutes ago, sime said:

Even though I knew my heart and mind were on the Remain side, I did read as many reports and forum comment sections as possible both for and against the EU to get a good consensus on how the rest of the nation was thinking. And what I saw from a large number of people planning on voting to leave was a dismission of anyone not Farage or Boris, as if they were the only authority on the subject. When clearly they knew nothing other than how to spin a good lie.

I think there was lies and mis truths on either side. At the end of the day it's done and whilst the margin was small the fact is more people voted to leave then remain. I think we should embrace it and see what happens,you have to remember a large proportion have never lived outside of the eu so maybe want to see what it's like

[slash's hat]

I think the age divide was an interesting one. Those that voted it in were more likely to vote it out. Those that knew nothing else were young people (and I am so glad of the seemingly new interest in voting, maybe the education system can take some credit for that as I know my kids are far more opinionated than I ever was at their ages). Then the middle aged folk who were either less likely to vote at all or be conflicted. 

That's how I saw it anyway.

[Rose-Colored Boy]

14 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

I think there was lies and mis truths on either side. At the end of the day it's done and whilst the margin was small the fact is more people voted to leave then remain. I think we should embrace it and see what happens,you have to remember a large proportion have never lived outside of the eu so maybe want to see what it's like

And in the highly likely event (based on all available evidence rather than opportunitistic conjecture) that we don’t like it (or worse), what then? Leaving the EU isn’t like getting your money back for a CD at Tesco, you can’t just change your mind and rejoin. We already had ridiculously good terms of EU membership which nobody else has ever been granted, even if we did one day manage to navigate the lengthy hurdles of joining back up with the EU it’d have been with a humiliating begging bowl for much worse terms than we have now, including full membership of the Schengen area. And you can imagine how that’d go down.

tl;dr version: absolutely not worth the risk for the 1% chance it turns out remotely positively.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Rose-Colored Boy

[sime]

12 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

I think there was lies and mis truths on either side. At the end of the day it's done and whilst the margin was small the fact is more people voted to leave then remain. I think we should embrace it and see what happens,you have to remember a large proportion have never lived outside of the eu so maybe want to see what it's like

Please, if you haven't already, have a very good read of what leaving the EU actually, practically, logistically means.

 

It isn't like trying on a new pair of trousers...

[glastolover19]

1 minute ago, Rose-Colored Boy said:

And in the highly likely event (based on all available evidence rather than opportunitistic conjecture) that we don’t like it (or worse), what then? Leaving the EU isn’t like getting your money back for a CD at Tesco, you can’t just rejoin. We already had ridiculously good terms of EU membership which nobody else has ever been granted, even if we did one day manage to navigate the lengthy hurdles of joining back up with the EU it’d have been with a humiliating begging bowl for much worse terms than we have now, including full membership of the Schengen area. And you can imagine how that’d go down.

tl;dr version: not worth it the risk, in the slightest.

But the truth is no body will know till it happens. As for re joining yes it will be a bit embarrassing and yes we won't get the same deal as currently do but I'm sure if say 5-10years down the line it doesn't work out we can go back,admittedly with our tail between our legs 

[glastolover19]

1 minute ago, sime said:

Please, if you haven't already, have a very good read of what leaving the EU actually, practically, logistically means.

 

It isn't like trying on a new pair of trousers...

I did my homework mate and if you think both sides were telling 100% the truth then your deluded. What you choose was right for you and what anyone else chose is what's right for them, frankly this seems to be the big problem(on both sides) everyone thinks they are right and if you don't agree then somehow your an idiot. I appreciate your upset it didn't go your way but that's life. I know it's not like trying on trousers but think we should embrace it and try and make the most of it

[nikkic]

49 minutes ago, henry bear said:

Didn’t get a ticket then?

Thankfully 

[David756]

This chat is amazing.

i voted remain, but people who claim that it was the only way to vote are wrong. Leave had legitimate beneficial reasons to go that way, as did remain. We voted in the biggest electorate turnout ever, remain lost, we now have to get on with it. 

It’s is funny that the people campaigning for a “people’s vote” are those that have one agenda, to remain in the EU. Pure and simple that is the reason.