Don't vote Tory

[Ommadawn]

2 hours ago, uscore said:

I know there are only a few Torys here, and they can't really be expected to speak for their entire race,  but a quick question anyway. Boris Johnson, really?? 

Isn't he just a totally amoral w*nker? I have zero % belief that he is in politics for the good of the country, rather than the good of Boris Johnson. 

It all just seems like a game to him, everything he says comes across like a student in a debate game, it doesn't come from the heart, more like he's just been told which side of the argument to take 5 minutes ago, and he'd be just as comfortable taking the other side. He's happy to lie over and over again and repeat widely discredited stories about his opponent. 

People don't really still see him as a lovable buffoon do they? Even if they did, that's no reason to elect him is it? 

He's not far off Trump levels of embarrassment, isn't he? 

 

He does come over as a total prat in public but I've heard he's a very different person 'behind the scenes'. He is very popular (like Corbyn) but not sure if he is electable (again like Corbyn). I think most Torys are into politics for themselves to be honest.

I'm not a Tory by the way

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

I agree, that was one of the things that contributed to the chaos, I'm hoping this election has taught them to clamp down on that- the worst one was when they agreed trident renewal policy at the conference, Clive Lewis wrote a speech declaring it then a few minutes before he got on stage, they passed him a note saying it had been changed! Think he punched a wall when he found out.

It did more than that. That contributed to a reasonable view that Corbyn had to be removed for the good of the party. That and many other fair and reasonable factors.

 

6 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

They do need to replace that minister though (I think she's in charge of Defence?), they need a much stronger figure there for the next election. 

She's a deputy shadow minister. She was sent by the leadership onto TV to put forwards the Party position, as agreed in cabinet, and published in the manifesto.

Her boss (Lady Nugee/Thornbury) undermined her and said she'd said it wrong. Jez undermined her and said she said it wrong.

And your view is that she's the weak one?

These are where the problems are. 

[Mr.Tease]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

The 'coup' was simply the idea that Corbyn was proving all of the standard polictial narrative correct - that he was unelectable. On that basis, to talk about the possibility that he might have to be removed at some point was sane thing, and not an unnecessary conspiracy.

You said something on the previous page about learning lessons.

The PLP were trying to work from the lessons learnt from the past. Their reasoning was perfectly sound, and the evidence supported it.

The PLP have now learnt that they were mistaken. The likes of you have to learn the lesson of their judgement being good in standard political terms, and that its the last 6 weeks which has changed things.

The idea that they were treating Jezza unfairly has to be put away as wrong, just as they are prepared to put away their previous opinions of how successful Jez might be.

As you said, lessons need to be learnt on both sides. Please take your own advice, so that they can all move forwards together.

Otherwise it's just a personality cult where the Glorious Leader can do no wrong.

You're doing your thing of caricaturing me based on what other people have said- I have actually said all along that the PLP speaks for a constituent that it is vital for us to win, my contention has always been that we lacked talent and needed fresh blood,  that the PLP had stopped offering any inspiring ideas (or indeed any ideas at all), and that we needed to reconnect with our core support as we were neither appealing to them nor winning over Tories.

[babyblade41]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

I'm curious, do you find from that experience of struggling that everyone else should have to struggle too, or do you want to help people avoid having to struggle like you had to?

Every generation has to struggle. and it makes you appreciate things better... nothing in life is free and when you do get to where you want to be it makes life all that bit sweeter .

The more we get given the more we want... but I am old school and don't expect everyone to take my view point at all. 

[Mr.Tease]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

It did more than that. That contributed to a reasonable view that Corbyn had to be removed for the good of the party. That and many other fair and reasonable factors.

 

She's a deputy shadow minister. She was sent by the leadership onto TV to put forwards the Party position, as agreed in cabinet, and published in the manifesto.

Her boss (Lady Nugee/Thornbury) undermined her and said she'd said it wrong. Jez undermined her and said she said it wrong.

And your view is that she's the weak one?

These are where the problems are. 

Indeed, and I've said they need to tighten up on it (and were generally much better at it during the election).

[Mr.Tease]

11 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

Every generation has to struggle. and it makes you appreciate things better... nothing in life is free and when you do get to where you want to be it makes life all that bit sweeter .

The more we get given the more we want... but I am old school and don't expect everyone to take my view point at all. 

I hope you don't take that attitude to your animals! 

I just see things as life is short, and I think when I'm dying the material achievements won't mean much too me and I'll probably regret not spending more time with people or doing a few more non-work related things. I think you'd still get the same feelings of achievement buying a house if they cost an average of £70,000 as you would one that costs an average of £200,000- working and sacrificing for that extra £130,000, it's time you can't get back. At least that's my view

[babyblade41]

12 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

I hope you don't take that attitude to your animals! 

I just see things as life is short, and I think when I'm dying the material achievements won't mean much too me and I'll probably regret not spending more time with people or doing a few more non-work related things. I think you'd still get the same feelings of achievement buying a house if they cost an average of £70,000 as you would one that costs an average of £200,000- working and sacrificing for that extra £130,000, it's time you can't get back. At least that's my view

I think in an ideal world we would all like that myself included but life isn't always what it's cracked up to be and as I have no parents or brothers and sisters anymore I'd give everything up and live in the sty if I can get 5 more mins with each of them .

What works for some wont work for others it's trying to find common ground that will suit all of us to some degree 

You've proved my point with the animals...all of them are free loaders and treat me like dirt...hardly any eggs and the pigs just trash all they have and when they escape they trash mine as well... my favourite wheel barrow now has a puncture thanks to them over night 

[zahidf]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I don't want to be sticking up for May, but I do get frustrated at seeing what I think is limited thinking that suits what that person thinks, rather than looking at the bigger picture.

May demonstrated she's a crap campaigner, and she took far too much for granted. It's left her in a weak position in the HoC and her party. She's a dead woman walking, who's exceedingly unlikely to be tory leader for the next election (tho events might change things, who knows).

But that makes fuck all difference to the EU. The EU negotiates with the UK's PM as the UK's PM, as the person authorised by the UK to form the UK's deal.

When (say) the French president signs an agreement with the UK, no one is ever thinking "we screwed more out of him because of his weak political position within France". Everything about it works around the strengths of France towards the UK strengths, and fuck all to do with the respective internal positions of those leaders.

So there's no more reason of her being eaten alive following the election than there was before the election. The EU still has the same list of things it wants from a deal.

So her saying she has a deal with the DUP, and the DUP immediately contradicting her doesnt make you question her competence?

[eFestivals]

Just now, zahidf said:

So her saying she has a deal with the DUP, and the DUP immediately contradicting her doesnt make you question her competence?

Yep. Just like the numbers in Labour's manifesto make me question theirs. i question competence in all directions. 

But, you know, a regional party like that is going to want screw every last advantage for themselves and their region out of the governing party, without much regard for the rest of the UK. It gets to be be all about me-me-me and fuck everyone else, like a tory on steroids.

 

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I don't want to be sticking up for May, but I do get frustrated at seeing what I think is limited thinking that suits what that person thinks, rather than looking at the bigger picture.

May demonstrated she's a crap campaigner, and she took far too much for granted. It's left her in a weak position in the HoC and her party. She's a dead woman walking, who's exceedingly unlikely to be tory leader for the next election (tho events might change things, who knows).

But that makes fuck all difference to the EU. The EU negotiates with the UK's PM as the UK's PM, as the person authorised by the UK to form the UK's deal.

When (say) the French president signs an agreement with the UK, no one is ever thinking "we screwed more out of him because of his weak political position within France". Everything about it works around the strengths of France towards the UK strengths, and fuck all to do with the respective internal positions of those leaders.

So there's no more reason of her being eaten alive following the election than there was before the election. The EU still has the same list of things it wants from a deal.

But however you look at it she has an extremely poor negotiating hand. Soft brexit is the only option as any deal has to go through parliament. Surely she can't go to the EU and make demands that both she and the EU know will not make it through our parliament? It's not her as an individual as such, it could be Jeremy Corbyn in the same position, but the position itself is extremely weak.

[arcade fireman]

I think with the small majority she had, she could still have passed her version of Brexit (just about). However post election this makes things a lot more difficult. The Guardian summarise a few of the issues here:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/10/election-nicky-morgan-theresa-hard-brexit

Some interesting bits:

Quote

Cooper added that it would be impossible to drive through the expected nine separate Brexit bills, on issues as wide-ranging as immigration policy, the right of EU citizens and trade, on the whim of a weakened prime minister in charge of a minority administration.

Quote

It is understood that Juncker had advised May to call an early general election as a result of his concerns that the 17-seat majority she had inherited from David Cameron would not be enough during the pinch points of the negotiations, including over the issue of the UK’s divorce bill, estimated to be as much as €100bn.

Quote

Concern over the implications for Brexit of May’s sudden loss of power and authority was also expressed by a senior government source who said he could not now see how she could drive the series of Brexit bills required, and the hugely complex and lengthy Great Repeal that will transpose EU into British law, with the current level of political instability and new makeup of the Commons. “We are in a completely appalling position. I cannot see a way through this.”

 

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

2 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

I think with the small majority she had, she could still have passed her version of Brexit (just about). However post election this makes things a lot more difficult. The Guardian summarise a few of the issues here:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/10/election-nicky-morgan-theresa-hard-brexit

Some interesting bits:

 

Exactly. To sum it up it's basically fucked. You could be the best negotiator in the world but that would be irrelevant, with a minorty government you've got an appalling negotiating position. I'm a staunch remainer, but surely anybody with a modicum of common sense could look at this situation and realise it's completely and utterly unworkable. Unfortunately there are enough people out there who are incapable of looking at the bigger picture and realising that Brexit is not just a case of pressing a button and it's all sorted out,  it's now a completely unworkable mess.

[eFestivals]

46 minutes ago, Deaf Nobby Burton said:

But however you look at it she has an extremely poor negotiating hand. Soft brexit is the only option as any deal has to go through parliament. Surely she can't go to the EU and make demands that both she and the EU know will not make it through our parliament? It's not her as an individual as such, it could be Jeremy Corbyn in the same position, but the position itself is extremely weak.

 

Yep, May has to get it whatever she agrees thru parliament, but she always had to that. It's made it harder for what goes thru the HoC to be a tory-only decision.

The EU will treat her no differently than they would have done previously. They will assume that what she offers is what is on offer, and that she as PM has the ability to deliver what she agrees with them.

The 'domestic' political issues May might face in getting an agreement thru the HoC isn't of much interest to the EU, only that she's able to do it and that once agreed it's likely to be politically sustainable within the UK (and not someone coming back in a few years for more changes).

[eFestivals]

42 minutes ago, Deaf Nobby Burton said:

Exactly. To sum it up it's basically fucked. You could be the best negotiator in the world but that would be irrelevant, with a minorty government you've got an appalling negotiating position. I'm a staunch remainer, but surely anybody with a modicum of common sense could look at this situation and realise it's completely and utterly unworkable. Unfortunately there are enough people out there who are incapable of looking at the bigger picture and realising that Brexit is not just a case of pressing a button and it's all sorted out,  it's now a completely unworkable mess.

You're a staunch remainer and want to see it as unworkable, but it's only as unworkable as people want to make it - and that includes Labour as much as the tories.

Both major UK parties need to be keeping in mind the consequences of both what they might make work and what might come back on them for being obstructive towards brexit. It's not the case that only the tories can lose from where we are right now.

[bamber]

23 hours ago, eFestivals said:

sorry bamber, but you've missed it just about totally there. Yep, Sinn Fein want a united Ireland, but that's not really much of what 'the troubles' were about. 

At the time of 'the troubles' starting in the 60s it came from purely a civil rights thing, where there was no universal franchise. Instead it was a franchise based on property ownership, which largely dis-enfranchised Catholics (so if you like, an apartheid state). Add in some (NI) state sanctioned violence against protests for equal rights, and it all kicked off.

As for one nation, that should be a self-determination thing - and even a majority of Catholics are happy with the status quo today.

Neil, again, you are being somewhat disingenuous here. While there is WAY more to the whole NI situation than the re-unification principle, embroiled as it is with property ownership, vested business interests and organised crime for starters, the fundamental argument is, and always has been, British rule. It is exactly the same as Gibraltar or the Falklands. Imagine if there was an arbitrary border drawn across the North West corner of Jamaica under British rule. How would you feel about that? NI is just another colonial hangover, we need to let it go. The fact that we have a British Tory government propped up by a bunch of reactionary, fundamentalist nut jobs in what is, despite its proximity, one of our former colonial possessions, is argument alone to question the status quo. As Nal said, this does need to be decided by a referendum, North and South, and I'm pretty sure which way that would go.

Edited June 11, 2017 by bamber

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

24 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

Yep, May has to get it whatever she agrees thru parliament, but she always had to that. It's made it harder for what goes thru the HoC to be a tory-only decision.

The EU will treat her no differently than they would have done previously. They will assume that what she offers is what is on offer, and that she as PM has the ability to deliver what she agrees with them.

The 'domestic' political issues May might face in getting an agreement thru the HoC isn't of much interest to the EU, only that she's able to do it and that once agreed it's likely to be politically sustainable within the UK (and not someone coming back in a few years for more changes).

But if that article above is accurate (which I doubt it is but..) then Juncker himself had a hand in the election being called in the first place. If that is remotely true then they fully understand the dynamic at play and know full well that with a minority government we are in an even weaker position than we were before. 

I get your point that as a staunch remainer I don't want to see it working, but the reality is whatever we end up with will be neither one thing or the other. There will be compromises on everything so nobody will get what they want wether you be leave, remain, hard or soft Brexit. 

Edited June 11, 2017 by Deaf Nobby Burton

[Mr.Tease]

2 hours ago, babyblade41 said:

I think in an ideal world we would all like that myself included but life isn't always what it's cracked up to be and as I have no parents or brothers and sisters anymore I'd give everything up and live in the sty if I can get 5 more mins with each of them .

What works for some wont work for others it's trying to find common ground that will suit all of us to some degree 

You've proved my point with the animals...all of them are free loaders and treat me like dirt...hardly any eggs and the pigs just trash all they have and when they escape they trash mine as well... my favourite wheel barrow now has a puncture thanks to them over night 

Once in a while, while she's lying in her basket looking at me, my dog will wink at me- I take this as her way of expressing gratitude for all the food, care and walks- do pigs not do this? 

[arcade fireman]

16 minutes ago, bamber said:

Neil, again, you are being somewhat disingenuous here. While there is WAY more to the whole NI situation than the re-unification principle, embroiled as it is with property ownership, vested business interests and organised crime for starters, the fundamental argument is, and always has been, British rule. It is exactly the same as Gibraltar or the Falklands. Imagine if there was an arbitrary border drawn across the North West corner of Jamaica under British rule. How would you feel about that? NI is just another colonial hangover, we need to let it go. The fact that we have a British Tory government propped up by a bunch of reactionary, fundamentalist nut jobs in what is, despite its proximity, one of our former colonial possessions, is argument alone to question the status quo. As Nal said, this does need to be decided by a referendum, North and South, and I'm pretty sure which way that would go.

This isn't accurate at all. I speak as someone who couldn't care less if NI became part of the Irish Republic as long as it was as a result of peaceful consensus. 

But the situation in NI is massively different to Gibraltar and the Falklands. All three are quite different situations - the Falklands situation is worlds apart from NI. Argentina have no claim whatsoever to the Falklands and indeed as an independent nation have never owned it. There is no history of Argentinian culture on the Falklands - indeed as far as I know not a single Argentinian person has ever been born on those islands. By default it would be an independent state, but clearly they would struggle hugely being so small and isolated and so they much prefer to be part of the UK. Argentina has zero legitimate claim. 

And the idea that a referendum should involve the South is preposterous. Did we in England ask to vote if Scotland should become independent? How would it be fair if NI voted 60-40 to stay in the Union but were outvoted by people in the South? 

Edited June 11, 2017 by arcade fireman

[bamber]

6 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

This isn't accurate at all. I speak as someone who couldn't care less if NI became part of the Irish Republic as long as it was as a result of peaceful consensus. 

But the situation in NI is massively different to Gibraltar and the Falklands. All three are quite different situations - the Falklands situation is worlds apart from NI. Argentina have no claim whatsoever to the Falklands and indeed as an independent nation have never owned it. There is no history of Argentinian culture on the Falklands - indeed as far as I know not a single Argentinian person has ever been born on those islands. By default it would be an independent state, but clearly they would struggle hugely being so small and isolated and so they much prefer to be part of the UK. Argentina has zero legitimate claim. 

And the idea that a referendum should involve the South is preposterous. Did we in England ask to vote if Scotland should become independent? How would it be fair if NI voted 60-40 to stay in the Union but were outvoted by people in the South? 

No, If you accept that Imperialism/Colonialism was wrong then you can't somehow pick and choose which territories we hang on to. Most of the former empire has now rightly been returned to the original inhabitants, We need to finish the job. Let it go.

[The Nal]

17 quotes from DUP politicians that are actually real

https://www.indy100.com/article/dup-theresa-may-tory-deal-alliance-minority-government-quotes-arlene-foster-lgbt-abortion-religion-7783241

[HalfAnIdiot]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I don't want to be sticking up for May, but I do get frustrated at seeing what I think is limited thinking that suits what that person thinks, rather than looking at the bigger picture.

May demonstrated she's a crap campaigner, and she took far too much for granted. It's left her in a weak position in the HoC and her party. She's a dead woman walking, who's exceedingly unlikely to be tory leader for the next election (tho events might change things, who knows).

But that makes fuck all difference to the EU. The EU negotiates with the UK's PM as the UK's PM, as the person authorised by the UK to form the UK's deal.

When (say) the French president signs an agreement with the UK, no one is ever thinking "we screwed more out of him because of his weak political position within France". Everything about it works around the strengths of France towards the UK strengths, and fuck all to do with the respective internal positions of those leaders.

So there's no more reason of her being eaten alive following the election than there was before the election. The EU still has the same list of things it wants from a deal.

I find the 'limited thinking" comment mildly offensive and a poor debating tactic.

May wanted to be sat at the negotiating table with a large majority that would add maximum weight to here stance. We now have a situation where she is substantially weakened. The EU negotiators will make maximum use of the current situation calling on whichever aspects of UK public opinion supports there position and reminding May that she doesnt even have a parliamentary majority. This will now be a far more partisan negotiation, just watch for the leaks from the EU when they want to undermine May on  a negotiating point.

We are in trouble. May got us here through poor judgment and should not carry that baggage into the negotiations. We need a new leader.

[bamber]

22 minutes ago, The Nal said:

17 quotes from DUP politicians that are actually real

https://www.indy100.com/article/dup-theresa-may-tory-deal-alliance-minority-government-quotes-arlene-foster-lgbt-abortion-religion-7783241

[babyblade41]

1 hour ago, Mr.Tease said:

Once in a while, while she's lying in her basket looking at me, my dog will wink at me- I take this as her way of expressing gratitude for all the food, care and walks- do pigs not do this? 

Nope... at half tonne each if they don't get what they want they will growl , bark then snort...that is precisely the right time to hot tail it out of their domain... These aren't cute little micro pigs... even the chap who put one to sleep a few weeks ago shot him twice as he was scared !!  The only thing that they will share food with is the feral cats I feed in the barn .

[Gucci Piggy]

4 hours ago, babyblade41 said:

But it is not impossible to get on the property ladder , my youngest at 28 managed last year with her partner . He works at a factory and she left school at 16 and worked as a temp. 

A lot of sacrifice and gruelling hours with no help from me saw them with just enough for a deposit..and now have a house of their own and that's in Oxford so not the cheapest place in the UK 

She had to sacrifice having children to do it mind 

 

4 hours ago, babyblade41 said:

It was just as difficult for me 36 years ago especially both of us being self employed... there were some dark times...and kids were a no no for a few of years. Buying a home is never easy and having the threat of losing it in times of severe hardship is never fun .

I did buy on my own eventually as well with 2 small children and tough doesn't come close to it 

I'm a bit confused here. Your youngest has just manager to get on the property ladder with her partner but has had to sacrifice having children to do so, whereas you managed to buy a house on your own with two children, but you're saying things were just as difficult for you?

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding but that doesn't seem to make sense to me. If you were able to buy a house in that situation compared to her then surely you had it a lot easier?

[phil the shrew]

As entertaining as it is to see the Conservatives rip themselves apart, the next five years really are going to be grim economically as the full impact of brexit and our ability to negotiate a deal falls apart

If you have any debt pay it off as soon as you can; if you are thinking of taking out a mortgage or loan that stretches you, don't do it; don't get ill as the NHS won't cope; don't get a life limiting illness as the state won't help you; don't have kids as the schools won't be able to cope

Have a good Glastonbury though - by 2019 Britain will be a darker less positive place to live